IEP Annoucement

[starrymarkb]

Wasn't it BR that instigated the Airline seating and non alignment in standard (caused by using a common bodyshell for first and standard.)

Plus there is more leg room airline when the train is busy. Things can get intimate with 4 around a table

 

[RichW1]

From stopping patterns, or just removed completely?

Steady Jon we wouldn't want to look anti-Swindon now would we?....would we?!!

I can only hope that this project at the very least provides a great design. If it looked 'functional' like the voyagers I will just die with despair...we'll have to look at these for at least 30 years!

 

[tbtc]

Hang on, 533 coaches, 60% to be bi-mode. Maths time....

So, 320 Electrodiesel carrages, so thats, 64 5 car sets... Now... Where could we find these from without having to fork out for two kinds of new stock.

Class 221 From ICWC, Keep as diesel or change to Electro Diesel curtousy of Bombardier. Theres 20 (Done by electrifying Crewe - Chester and ordering some more Class 390s for ICWC and handing over Birmingham - Scotland and Manchester / Liverpool - Scotland over to ICWC)
Class 222 From ICMML, as with class 221. Theres another 27 (Simple, electrify the MML, in full, to Wakfeild and Doncaster)
Class 180 off lease from ICEC, another 5. (The're not using them, and northern won't need them soon)

So, theres 52 right there

Agreed, plus a short stretch from Selby to Hull would free up the 180s at HT. Maybe give some HSTs displaced from MML to GC and swap for their 180s too?

If you are wiring the MML then logically the Derby - Tamworth - Birmingham line is fairly short to do at the same time. Each electrification provides a better business case for the next. Suddenly you have dozens of "spare" 125mph DMUs, and no need for IEP?

 

[RichW1]

Are these going to be multiple units or engine at either end? I'm guessing multiple units? Just as I was thinking on the other IEP thread about seating - if the drivers cab takes up some of the space on these 8 car formations we're worse off than we are today are we not?!

 

[RobShipway]

Are these going to be multiple units or engine at either end? I'm guessing multiple units? Just as I was thinking on the other IEP thread about seating - if the drivers cab takes up some of the space on these 8 car formations we're worse off than we are today are we not?!

They are going to be mutiple units with diesel engine under each carriage in the same way that Voyager/Meridian trains have a diesel engine under each carriage.

 

[starrymarkb]

Are these going to be multiple units or engine at either end? I'm guessing multiple units? Just as I was thinking on the other IEP thread about seating - if the drivers cab takes up some of the space on these 8 car formations we're worse off than we are today are we not?!

They will be MUs, Underfloor engines under the middle 3 cars presumably first and quiet coaches will be the unmotored ones*

*on the Swiss ICN the motor vehicles are all Standard, the unmotored are First

 

[RichW1]

So we will be worse off with fewer seats in each 8 car formation as proposed than we are today?! What a ridiculous state of affairs?

 

[Zoe]

One suspects there isn't the capacity on the Filton Bank stretch of line for 4tph to Parkway with two continuing to Temple Meads. I'm not aware of any plans to 4-track Filton Bank as part of the IEP electrification.

Philip Hammond did clearly say that there will be 4 tph between Temple Meads and London though.

 

[RobShipway]

So we will be worse off with fewer seats in each 8 car formation as proposed than we are today?! What a ridiculous state of affairs?

The Bi - mode sets will be 5 car formation and not 8 cars, so possibly even more worse off than you might imagine.

 

[Zoe]

The Bi - mode sets will be 5 car formation and not 8 cars, so possibly even more worse off than you might imagine.

Not if they run as 2 x 5 sets.

 

[RichW1]

I love the way train operators say this but if you want to get the 6pm train, you don't get all the way down the platform, get on the train, see you can't get a seat and then walk back up the platform and wait for 15mins....you end up enduring it. What they forget is the public doesn't control it's flows of people and have train logistics in their head so they maximise their chances of getting a seat! Another Pendolino disaster coming up where they'll be too short to start off with, I guess they'll remain that way too.

 

[bnm]

I believe that the first train company to reinstate seating as it was back in the days of BR, with groups of four seats around a table and aligned with the windows, would gain a huge marketing advantage.

What advantage? 1/4 less seating capacity on FGW HSTs for example. You are aware that we have the highest peacetime usage of trains with a 50% increase in the number of passenger journeys since the HST was introduced. So what you gain from your rose-tinted view of the past you quickly lose as passengers are put off travelling when they either cannot get a seat after purchasing a walk-up ticket, or cannot book an Advance because the lack of seats mean the Advances sell out much quicker.

Yes it's nice to be able to sit at a table and have an unobstructed view, but I'd rather any seat than no seat at all. FGW had to do something about the lack of seats on their HSTs.

Their solution should be applauded, not derided. More seats, which are well designed and comfortable (a soft seat does not equal comfort), no lesser legroom in the airline seats compared to the original layout, power sockets for every pair of seats and a flip down table that will support a laptop. And they managed to do this and still have every 'window' seat with at least a partial view.

Yes, maybe the seat backs are a little high and the lighting can be a bit harsh, but my number one concern is getting a seat. Prior to the refurb of the FGW HSTs that was getting increasingly difficult.

 

[Zoe]

Another Pendolino disaster coming up where they'll be too short to start off with, I guess they'll remain that way too.

Remember though that it seems the TOCs would like everyone to book in advance. If people only booked in advane there would be no overcrowding. As for the pendolini as far as I know their introduction was quite successful. It was the Voyagers that were too short.

 

[LE Greys]

Wasn't it BR that instigated the Airline seating and non alignment in standard (caused by using a common bodyshell for first and standard.)

Plus there is more leg room airline when the train is busy. Things can get intimate with 4 around a table

Started with the MkIII. Early on, they had nine bays on each side of a TS, but only eight windows, because the windows were based on the seating pattern of a TF. A MkII has eight windows per side for a TSO and seven per side for an FO. Anyway, the seating pattern in the TS never lined up with the windows properly, in fact the middle bay had a window pillar right next to the table. When they built the TGSs (not part of the original HST order) they decided to introduce airline-style seating for about half the seats, and that actually improved seat visibility. As a result, they rearranged the seats at the first major refurbishment, and it's stayed basically the same ever since. MkIVs were slightly higher density, 80% airline seats.

 

[RichW1]

Fair point about the Pendolinos Zo, booking in advance is just a no-no in my book. That said, it might have to happen with the overcrowding going on. I just resent the day I can't be spontaneous and get on a train and go somewhere...my life has to be meticulously planned.....yuk!

 

[RobShipway]

Not if they run as 2 x 5 sets.

Point is that the bi - mode sets should be 7 or 8 car sets as the current HST sets are running the same routes. I know some people will say that there is going to be more trains per hour, so in the aspect fewer coaches will be needed but that is not thinking into the future in my opinion were they could be a lot greater demand than there is today. Having 7 or 8 car sets would stop the same situation happening with the bi mode sets that happened with the 4 car & 5 car voyagers that XC use on their services doing the services uncoupled to other units.

 

[RichW1]

Exactly....I just don't get this stupid planning?! It's just such a common sense decision that they should be 9 cars minimum and then have 5car sets as per the plan for other routes. What the hell are these people on when they make these decisions....don't all shout....I know it's money. But seriously, if you're going to prepare for the future.....at least do it properly!

 

[LE Greys]

Point is that the bi - mode sets should be 7 or 8 car sets as the current HST sets are running the same routes. I know some people will say that there is going to be more trains per hour, so in the aspect fewer coaches will be needed but that is not thinking into the future in my opinion were they could be a lot greater demand than there is today. Having 7 or 8 car sets would stop the same situation happening with the bi mode sets that happened with the 4 car & 5 car voyagers that XC use on their services doing the services uncoupled to other units.

I quite agree. Besides, coupling two sets together means duplicate catering and two guards, good for employing extra people, not so good for a company's margins.

 

[Zoe]

Point is that the bi - mode sets should be 7 or 8 car sets as the current HST sets are running the same routes.

Remember there was a dft requirment for the train to be able to split en route. Running the train as 2 x 5 is the best way to fit this specification.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I just resent the day I can't be spontaneous and get on a train and go somewhere

To be fair, unless you are very rich you can't do that these days.

 

[Blindtraveler]

the whole thing is just another example of oo lets spend as little and score as many points as we can at the expense of the rail traveler. TPE 185s, 3 instead of 4 car and they expect them to play a major part in the northwest Scotland WCML coridore, amongst other things, joke. 4 or 5 car voyagers built admittedly to virgins spec for crosscountry and some west coast type work and today, roughly 10 years on from there introduction they are providing some of the longest services on the network with insufficient space for passengers and there belongings and in a half hearted effort to fix said problem, no propper catering! The pendo problems mentioned above also apply. In short, not enough seats, less cumfort and more problems than old BR stock and whilst the public suffers DFT and ministers sit back cumfortably in the nearest B a first airport lounge and say wel done old chap. Has anyone from said department ever used these over crouded runs, so full of under floor engine noise and so bad in X Cs case for phone and internet users for any length of time? The tories privatised the railways because they didnt care and although IEP was the last governments baby, hamond and co had a real chance to show that a decade and a half on they do now care, but no, they sit back and for the next 30 plus years give us hitachies take on voyagers. Great!

 

[Zoe]

4 or 5 car voyagers built admittedly to virgins spec for crosscountry

At the time it was thought that by doubling the frequency you could halve the length of the trains. It was only Virgin's aggressive marketing campaign at the start of Operation Princess that resulted in the sudden increased in demand and overcrowding. Had this not been the case we'd likely all be saying what a success it was.

 

[tbtc]

Remember there was a dft requirment for the train to be able to split en route. Running the train as 2 x 5 is the best way to fit this specification

What I think people are forgetting is that these are going to be 26m coaches. Once you take out the space for doors/ toilet/ vestibule (which are going to be the same size on any coach), this means a substantial increase in the seating capacity per coach.

Also, the five coach units will be able to detach to serve "branches" which can't justify a 260metre train (and don't have the space to accommodate one). It gives a chance to some early morning/late night services which wouldn't be profitable for a long train, could work okay with a smaller one.

Yes, it means two Guards, but asking one person to "man" a ten coach 260metre long train is a bit optimistic, it'd take a long time to walk from one end to the other whilst the train is moving. Better to have two people, easier to find someone.

 

[bnm]

The Bi - mode sets will be 5 car formation and not 8 cars, so possibly even more worse off than you might imagine.

Have you bothered to read the figures that accompanied the Secretary of State's announcement?

11,000 more peak time seats. It's a misconception to believe that there will be a straight swap of one 8 coach HST for a 5 car bi-mode on a particular diagram.

 

[WatcherZero]

We should also consider this just the first step. The odds are that if demand increases there will be consistently lengthened services or more sets ordered, these production lines are going to be going until 2018/19 at least. The bi-modes can also be converted into all electric EMU by simply removing the engines as they are an identical design. To me the 40:60 ratio smacks of ensuring there is enough Diesel capacity at the point when electrification is least complete which could be reduced or cascaded when the electrification catches up.

 

[Zoe]

Remember also that options exist for IEP units on the Plymouth/Penzance route and the WCML.

 

[Nym]

And all still an utter waste of money and will result in redundant stock in 15 years that is nowhere near life expired.

 

[Nym]

Remember also that options exist for IEP units on the Plymouth/Penzance route and the WCML.

IEP, on the WCML, really? WTF? It isn't EPS permissable so these new trains would increase journey times and be a step backwards!

 

[Zoe]

And all still an utter waste of money and will result in redundant stock in 15 years that is nowhere near life expired.

What redundant stock?

 

[Zoe]

IEP, on the WCML, really? WTF? It isn't EPS permissable so these new trains would increase journey times and be a step backwards!

Not for London to Northampton services.

 

[Nym]

What redundant stock?

If electrification continues as it should, Bi Mode IEPs or 22x stock, the Bi Mode diagrams can be covered by a small infill and electrifying the MML then cascading the 22x stock. So when this happens anyway, it will result in that stock being redundant.