IEP Annoucement

[Zoe]

It has been known since 2006 and indeed may have been a large reason FGW got the franchise to start with.

 

[daikilo]

It has been known since 2006 and indeed may have been a large reason FGW got the franchise to start with.

Noted, d

 

[RichW1]

Does anyone on here with atechnical knowledge believe for one second that IEP with no increase in speed but just by acceleration alone, will cut 20 minutes off a journey to Bristol?!! A 91 versus and HST over 400miles can only achieve about 10minutes can't it? Or maybe a touch more so where did that figure come from???

 

[Zoe]

Does anyone on here with atechnical knowledge believe for one second that IEP with no increase in speed but just by acceleration alone, will cut 20 minutes off a journey to Bristol?!! A 91 versus and HST over 400miles can only achieve about 10minutes can't it? Or maybe a touch more so where did that figure come from???

It would most likely not stop at all the places HSTs currently do.

 

[RichW1]

I thought the reason journeys have slowed is because it became commercially required to stop at odd places like Chippenham and Didcot on most services? Could they really remove these? I only say this because if they could already do it...then why don't they? If going from Bristol Parkway it's 1hr22mins but that's still slower than it ised to be as all services call Swindon and Reading without fail.

 

[Zoe]

I thought the reason journeys have slowed is because it became commercially required to stop at odd places like Chippenham and Didcot on most services? Could they really remove these?

They won't be removing them. The service to Bristol Temple Meads is increasing to 4 tph so the current 2 tph at Chippenham will be retained.

 

[RichW1]

Could they not do away with 1 of those Chippenham services as it is? It's hardly a hub and it's general area is connected with bath anyway. It doesn't seem worthy of 2 trains per hour with an Intercity but that's just my view. Seems a good way to slow things down un-necessarily to me.

 

[Zoe]

Could they not do away with 1 of those Chippenham services as it is? It's hardly a hub and it's general area is connected with bath anyway. It doesn't seem worthy of 2 trains per hour with an Intercity but that's just my view. Seems a good way to slow things down un-necessarily to me.

But the same goes for Tiverton Parkway and Totnes as I said in the other thread. Poeple will argue that if the train is picking passengers up, even if they are only going to Bath or Swindon then the stop is justified. Of course had the SRA not axed the direct Brsitol to Oxford service then you'd have an additional service for Chippenham and could also reopen Corsham station.

 

[Class 33]

Just a note for anyone interested. Sort of related to this, with talk about the stops at Bath Spa and Chippenham. In the last two weekends of April(plus a more limited service on Bank Holiday Mondays) some additional scheduled services will be running between Bristol Temple Meads and London Paddington. So there will at times be THREE FGW trains an hour between the two cities. Some services will be running via Westbury and Newbury, the others running via the Bristol Parkway or Chippenham and Bath routes and calling intermediently at Reading only. The fastest scheduled journey time will be 1 hour 28 minutes with the 1217 service from Bristol on the Saturdays. Great stuff, and a hark back to the days of EXPRESS services between Bristol and London, and also a sort of preview in some ways to the upcoming GWML electrification and the IEP trains.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . could also reopen Corsham station.

Wow!
Corsham Station?

Only 10k population but quite a wide, if sparse catchment. That is exactly the sort of initiative that should be put under scrutiny whenever re-timetabling any line; especially where the remaining infrastructure places the competing demands of local and long-distance services on a common but very simple infrastructure.

An interesting example.

 

[Zoe]

Once the Reading remodelling is complete higher line speeds will allow trains to benefit from not stopping there. Currently due to low line speeds you don't save much time by not stopping at Reading.

 

[RichW1]

I can't see Raeding ever not being part of a stopping pattern but I'd love to be proved wrong. Commercially Reading is London's high-tech home spreading from there to Weybridge. Can't see how it would not be included. As I say I'd love to be proved wrong, in all honesty I'd prefer Swindon was removed!

 

[Zoe]

I can't see Raeding ever not being part of a stopping pattern but I'd love to be proved wrong.

It could be argued that Virgin should stop everything at Milton Keynes but this is not the case.

 

[route:oxford]

I can't see Reading ever not being part of a stopping pattern but I'd love to be proved wrong. Commercially Reading is London's high-tech home spreading from there to Weybridge. Can't see how it would not be included. As I say I'd love to be proved wrong, in all honesty I'd prefer Swindon was removed!

Not sure if it still operates, but there was definitely one service each way daily between Oxford & Paddington that didn't stop at Reading.

 

[Zoe]

Not sure if it still operates, but there was definitely one service each way daily between Oxford & Paddington that didn't stop at Reading.

I believe the Cathedrals Express, that went the way of almost every other service at the start of the new franchise with Reading calls added.

 

[moggie]

It could be argued that Virgin should stop everything at Milton Keynes but this into the case.

But will be under the new WC franchise aspirations (or at least a significant increase). Perhaps something to do with centres of NR activities perhaps?

 

[tbtc]

It could be argued that Virgin should stop everything at Milton Keynes but this into the case.

I presume all will stop there once HS2 takes the "fast" services, the existing WCML operation will then be able to make more stops at places like MK

 

[RichW1]

It'll become semi-fast like those on the continent I believe. Will serve major towns and connect them with the major cities rather than major city to city services with few stops. Sure Milton Keynes will be one of those almost certainly.

 

[Zoe]

It'll become semi-fast like those on the continent I believe. Will serve major towns and connect them with the major cities rather than major city to city services with few stops. Sure Milton Keynes will be one of those almost certainly.

All depends if Virgin will want to keep the headline journey times to try and compete with HS2.

 

[RichW1]

I haven't got an idea as to how this'll work because whoever gets the franchise will be running west coast services on some high speed line and the rest on conventional. This leaves the question of Milton Keynes services to Manchester but I suspect the conventional southern section where the high speed line will replace will be given over to regional services or maybe a limited service that offers Milton Keynes its connection with Manchester etc. I'm actually not to sure how this half-way house will work. It was always going to be this way as you obviously can't build high-speed in one go, I just don't know how the organisational situation will work with relation to franchises and who will serve where.

 

[Zoe]

You could have everything stop at Milton Keynes now. It doesn't fit in well with Virgin's headline journey times though. Other than Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow Milton Keynes may well be the most important destination.

 

[DJ_K666]

In July 2009 with the original electrification announcement, it said work on the electrification would begin immediately. That of course didn't happen. So let's hope now it's not long before the actual physical evidence of work on the electrification going ahead.

In this case work started probably means someone went onto the GWML and moved a couple of lumps of ballast half an inch or so...

 

[Zoe]

http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2011/03/new-trains-extravagance/

Christian Wolmar's blog reports that the dft were involved that loco haulage off the wires would result in time penalty as it would take fifteen minutes to attach the locomotive.

 

[Chafford1]

Courtesy of 'Grahame' on the 'First Great Western Coffee Shop' website:

From a presentation by Matthew Gorton of FGW to TravelWatch SouthWest on 5th March 2011 at Taunton.

Electrification

London to Newbury
London to Oxford via Didcot
London to Bristol Temple Meads via Chippenham / Bath
London to Bristol Temple Meads via Bristol Parkway
London to Cardiff via Bristol Parkway and Newport

This is seen as a first phase, with a rolling onward program if a case can be made.

Swansea is not included; it does not make the case at the lower service level that's the most that's currently justified, and there is no extra speed gain from electifying this twisty section on its current track routing

South Wales valleys are possibly in - next stage of electification - in the next control phase (i.e. 2014 - 2019).

InterCity Express Program (IEP)

2016 for initial delivery.
Hitachi to provide 533 vehicles for daily use of which 308 will be on GW; note that more will be built to provide for those being serviced by Hitachi, etc
To be formed into 8 car electric sets and 5 car bimode sets
Ratio (of vehicles?) electic : bimode to be 40 : 60
Bimode sets capable of coupling to make up 10 car sets for busy services
All vehicles will be passenger carrying
Vehicles will be 26 metres long
Bimode sets will have engines under 3 of the 5 carriages
Design is to allow for easy lengthening / shortening of the sets

Service futures (GW)

4 trains per hour, London to Bristol Parkway (1 hr 11 mins)
- 2 carry on to Cardiff (1 hr 42 mins), of which 1 carries on to Swansea (2 hrs 39 mins)
- other 2 carry on to Temple Meads

2 trains per hour, London to Bristol Temple Meads via Chippenham / Bath

Core peak services from London to Hereford/Worcester, Swansea, Exeter, Cheltenham and Oxford, plus "perhaps some beyond". Carmarthen was mentioned, as was Taunton (which I guess is via Bridgwater).

This is said to be an extra 8500 peak seats - an increase of 30%

West of England is "future phase". No mention made of Weston-super-mare.

The HST fleet, refurbished by FGW for a life to 2013, will be extended to 2016 for the whole fleet with a longer extended life for a smaller fleet for West of England services, pending cascade of other trains from elsewhere in the UK or further new builds.

Questions asked

"First has the option to carry on to 2016 or to complete the franchise in 2013. Can you tell us if a decision has been made yet?" - "No decision made"

"You talk about the government, Hitachi and the operators having inputs into the deisgn of the new trains. Will passengers have an input on the interior design". Real anger was expressed by the questioner on high, hard seats, lack of tables, and very close airline style seating. - "Yes - passenger inputs will be taken from Passenger Focus and operator inputs from ATOC. We have not seen details yet but bear in mind that safety is paramount and you'll note that modern interior design is very much safer - see Lambrigg accident, for example, with limited casualtys from a high speed accident"

"Redoubling via Kemble - part of the scheme?" - "No, but the usefulness of doing so is recognised." [I think there was comment about further announcement in next 10 days]

"Exeter / Plymouth, and cascading of HSTs" - "Exeter will be 2 trains per hour bimode, Plymouth hourly HST beyond". The questioner asked about using HSTs for the stoppers on the Cornwall main line and also Cardiff - Portsmouth, but I didn't catch any answer given to those points

"What about Torbay" - "Torbay is important to us as witnessed by the extra service introduced recently" I didn't catch any further answer telling us about service patterns for Torbay under IEP / re-allocated HSTs.

 

[jon0844]

..in all honesty I'd prefer Swindon was removed!

From stopping patterns, or just removed completely?

 

[Nym]

Removing it completly would get rid of my old head office, Hmmm....

Can we make it so HSx (West Country) can pave over Greenbridge Road in Swindon?

 

[bnm]

As a follow up to the post by Chafford1, Matthew Golton of FGW later corrected himself at the TWSW meeting on the the provision of service to Bristol with IEP. Bristol will receive a total of 5tph to it's two main stations at Temple Meads and Parkway.

That is likely, though not expressly mentioned, made up of 2tph to Temple Meads via Chippenham and Bath and 3tph to Parkway, with one of the Parkway services continuing to Temple Meads via Filton. The other 2tph continue on to Cardiff with one further continuing to Swansea.

One suspects there isn't the capacity on the Filton Bank stretch of line for 4tph to Parkway with two continuing to Temple Meads. I'm not aware of any plans to 4-track Filton Bank as part of the IEP electrification.

 

[Anonywave]

I'm not sure you'd be able to electrify Reading to Basingstoke as third rail. Only extensions of existing systems are allowed and I'm not sure if Basingstoke to Reading could count as that.

Why not, the lines at Basingstoke are 3rd rail.

When it says electrify to Newbury, does that include the few extra miles to Bedwyn? Otherwise I guess this service may find itself reduced to a Newbury shuttle, rather than run a DMU all the way to London 99% under the wires...

And also on the subject of trains stopping at Reading, isn't there some archaic rule or regulation that says all passenger services have to stop there? Or is that no longer the case?

p.s. if they are thinking about the Severn Beach line for electrification, thats good, but I would assume they would also want to also wire back from St. Andrews Road to Bristol Parkway... which begs the question... how will they get past this...
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...1.517439,-2.578408&spn=0.001793,0.004823&z=18

Why would they want to electrify a freight only line anyway? Has it previously been used for diversions?

 

[Nym]

Hang on, 533 coaches, 60% to be bi-mode. Maths time....

So, 320 Electrodiesel carrages, so thats, 64 5 car sets... Now... Where could we find these from without having to fork out for two kinds of new stock.

Class 221 From ICWC, Keep as diesel or change to Electro Diesel curtousy of Bombardier. Theres 20 (Done by electrifying Crewe - Chester and ordering some more Class 390s for ICWC and handing over Birmingham - Scotland and Manchester / Liverpool - Scotland over to ICWC)
Class 222 From ICMML, as with class 221. Theres another 27 (Simple, electrify the MML, in full, to Wakfeild and Doncaster)
Class 180 off lease from ICEC, another 5. (The're not using them, and northern won't need them soon)

So, theres 52 right there. We'd need to electrify some track to release another 12 125mph diesel sets. Yes, I'm looking at you Cross Country...

Manchester - Bristol uses how many diagrams? 1tph 3hr20 journey time, I work that out to be 8 diagrams.
Cut Manchester - Bornmouth back to Reading and hand the Bournmouth section over to the trains off Newcastle, so, how many there? Roughly 4hr journey time 1tph, 8 or 10 diagrams?

But, would it actually need a full 64 5 car trains available, if some of the cascaded units converted by Bombardier could be 7, 8 or 9 carrages long. I recon the 52 freed up by a couple of schemes would be plenty.

PS: Anything West of Chester diesel loco hauled. And all XC Stock to recive lengthening to 7 or 8 carrages by Bombardier with the installation of additional Generator and Panto/Transformer carrages.

I really don't see why we need bi-mode if we have a sustained program for electrification to have a gradual withdrawl of HSTs

If we have the bi-mode trains and a sustained program of elecrification then we're going to end up in 15 years with an ovrstock of diesel LDPE stock we don't need, and no-one else wants. No point in Bi Mode...

By the time these diesels life expire in 25 years, we might need a bi-mode then for the services into the very west country but most main lines will be electrified.

 

[Squaddie]

Can I be the first to complain that the windows on the IEP won't line up with seats?

You might be the first, but you certainly won't be the last. And with good reason.

The average train passenger just doesn't get excited about new trains the way the enthusiasts do - all they (we!) want are reliable services and a reasonable level of comfort while on board. And the long-standing trend for packing in as many seats as possible by removing tables and not aligning seats with windows are two of the things that ordinary passengers detest above all else. Even W&S were guilty of this, despite the fact that their trains were barely a third full most of the time.

I believe that the first train company to reinstate seating as it was back in the days of BR, with groups of four seats around a table and aligned with the windows, would gain a huge marketing advantage.