IEP Annoucement

[Mystic Force]

Could we not use some type of electrical heating to warm the engine block at least to reduce the physical time needed to run the thing before it used for power. I think I am a minority, I think it actually might work.

 

[Zoe]

I think 4 tph to 'Bristol' might just be typical DfT spin...

No, 4 tph to Temple Meads was confirmed.
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Could we not use some type of electrical heating to warm the engine block at least to reduce the physical time needed to run the thing before it used for power. I think I am a minority, I think it actually might work.

If there is going to be one engine in each coach running when under the wires then I would have thought this could power a heater to warm the other two.

 

[swt_passenger]

I quite agree with this - my point was that the service isn't designed for this purpose (for the simple reason of making as much profit as possible!). Better from the passenger's point of view to have different versions for the mid-distance routes (London to Oxford, Bristol, Newbury, even Leeds) and long-distance routes, but of course we have to have things "standardised"... even if this means ordering totally different designs for each train order, and two types of IEP!

The IEP as described in its original ITT actually had three different interior designs, commuter, inter-regional, and intercity. Has there ever been any hard evidence that this aspect has changed? Until they actually build them, I suggest no one actually knows, yet many people seem to be resigned to Voyager clones being delivered, based on little more than they have similar numbers of carriages...

 

[philjo]

Wheres the market for 4tph to Bristol? and more importantly, the paths!

I suppose a pair of the 5 car sets could run together from Paddington then split at Swindon - with one portion going to Cheltenham & the other to Bristol (& maybe beyond) - either via Parkway or via Bath.
Maybe a west of England service will go that way to be electric as far a Temple Meads?
In addition to the existing Bristol services.

 

[LexyBoy]

No, 4 tph to Temple Meads was confirmed.
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If there is going to be one engine in each coach running when under the wires then I would have thought this could power a heater to warm the other two.

Maybe the plan is to use the engines to generate power which can be transferred into the OHL, then used by the train to turn the diesel engines. These are used to power the train and the excess power is fed back into the OHL. Thus no diesel is actually consumed, and as a bonus power is generated which can be used by other trains.

Problem?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Maybe the plan is to use the engines to generate power which can be transferred into the OHL, then used by the train to turn the diesel engines. These are used to power the train and the excess power is fed back into the OHL. Thus no diesel is actually consumed, and as a bonus power is generated which can be used by other trains.

Problem?

Several.

You propose turning diesel engines with electric power? How? Why?
Are you aware of the energy required to overcome the compression and friction in a diesel engine?

You propose supplying current into the OHLE from a train? How can the safe isolation of the OHLE operate in an emergency if there is current flowing into the OHLE from more than one source?

You propose installing Diesel engines in which "no diesel is actually consumed"? So why are they there?

What is the benefit of supplying electric power through the OHLE to carry the weight of those diesel engines around?

How do you propose matching the capacity to generate 'surplus' electrical energy with the load in the same section of OHLE and how would you inhibit the system if there was not actually any other load (train) in that section of OHLE?
Or so you propose some method of returning power through the substations back into the supply grid? How?

 

[WatcherZero]

Slight confusion here, its not the OHLE ability to supply the power for the bi-mode that is at fault, its the Bi-Modes ability to 'drink' enough power from the OHLE to carry the extra diesel motors as the driving cars will be the same for the DEMU and EMU versions. The alternative to having one diesel on under the wires would be for the driving car to have extra electrical transformer equipment but this would cost passenger space in the driving car and weight. They may have since refined the design and added the extra equipment in as base precluding the need for diesel to run under the wires but we dont know yet. Before people say 'well why not add more in the bi-mode driving cars only' they want them to be identical for ease of maintenence, reduced costs and simplifying availability.

Likewise people are running around saying 'why no 10 car version' the Bi-modes would be 5 car version only but the EMU would come in 5 and 10 car versions (8+2), in the 10 car version there would be two panto's up (one at the front and one at the rear) which ive heard in the past can cause vibration issues with OHLE but presumably NR would be able to design around this by using higher tensioned OHLE.

 

[Nym]

Could we not use some type of electrical heating to warm the engine block at least to reduce the physical time needed to run the thing before it used for power. I think I am a minority, I think it actually might work.

It wouldn't work completly but diesel engine pre-heaters by water circulation and enhanced glowplugs does work.
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If there is going to be one engine in each coach running when under the wires then I would have thought this could power a heater to warm the other two.

I wish pepole would get the idea of using a diesel generator to power ANYTHING while under the wires out of their head! All you need is a slightly larger transformer!

 

[RobShipway]

Apologies, if this has been mentioned before but wouldn't the IEP's work in the same way as the Voyager where they have a diesel engine under each carriage and would have a generator car with a pantograph on top?

 

[Nym]

Slight confusion here, its not the OHLE ability to supply the power for the bi-mode that is at fault, its the Bi-Modes ability to 'drink' enough power from the OHLE to carry the extra diesel motors as the driving cars will be the same for the DEMU and EMU versions. The alternative to having one diesel on under the wires would be for the driving car to have extra electrical transformer equipment but this would cost passenger space in the driving car and weight. They may have since refined the design and added the extra equipment in as base precluding the need for diesel to run under the wires but we dont know yet. Before people say 'well why not add more in the bi-mode driving cars only' they want them to be identical for ease of maintenence, reduced costs and simplifying availability.

Likewise people are running around saying 'why no 10 car version' the Bi-modes would be 5 car version only but the EMU would come in 5 and 10 car versions (8+2), in the 10 car version there would be two panto's up (one at the front and one at the rear) which ive heard in the past can cause vibration issues with OHLE but presumably NR would be able to design around this by using higher tensioned OHLE.

1) You think the specification alows much space in the transformer / panto car? You know how big a 5.1MW Transformer is?

2) Any ideas how much mass a diesel engine set will add in comparison with the total mass of the set? I can tell you it's 20tonnes for the engines and fuel, or if it's a seprate carrage, you're looking at 40 tonnes, on a 400 tonne train, now thats 10% of the total mass.

3) If the set isn't powerful enough to pull the extra weight of the diesel engine, then it's down to the Traction Packs, and if the limiting factor is actually the transformer and the Tracktion packs are more powerful than the transformer can provide, then the're on VERY dangerous grounds.

4) Read my last post, somone has and says it makes sense, there shouldn't be any '5 car version' or '10 car version' or whatever.

Transfomer car 8 or 9MW (upto 12 coaches)
Passenger car (with traction equipment) and space to mount a REMOVABLE frame with generator equipment
Driving Van Trailer (With passenger accomadation)

OR

Transformer Car with 8 or 9 MW transformer AND an 800hp Diesel Generator, kept warm by water circulation heaters, powered from OHL (in electric only to provide emergency power)
Passenger car (with traction equipment) WITHOUT space for a removable frame of generators

AND:
Driving Van Trailer with passenger accomadation and tracktion equipment
OR:
Generator Carrage, 3700hp diesel generator to feed busbar, used in conjunction with 800hp 'emergency generator' in Transformer Carrage

Regardless of what happens with any of this, I wouldn't want to be in a carrage with an 8MW transformer, and I ceriously dowbt there would be space anyway.
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Apologies, if this has been mentioned before but wouldn't the IEP's work in the same way as the Voyager where they have a diesel engine under each carriage and would have a generator car with a pantograph on top?

This is yet to be determined by Hitachi

Both options have been offically mentioned by them, origionally having a 'power car' and an underfloor diesel in ONE carrage for emergency power.

EDIT: Each of these removable traction packages would be able to be removed by Hitachi at main depot for servicing and to enable homogonisation of all passenger carrages excluding DVTs.

Each with a total power output of approximately 750hp, different packs could exist, provided they all meet the same interface specification. Either a single QSK19, or sets of bus engines to meet Euro IIIii standards.

SUB EDIT: Running with 2 pantos up over 100mph is silly...

SUB SUB EDIT: The reason I'm going on so much about homogonisation (making as many things the same as possible) is that this makes things cheaper and more reliable...

 

[WatcherZero]

Have you never ridden on a 3xx unit? they somehow magically manage to have passengers on the same coach as the 25kv transformer equipment, some even managing to have 750v DC shoes and equipment too! The making room for the transformer equipment on the IEP is why the driving cars are unpowered, so that they can offer maximum passenger lounge capacity.

We know you want locomotives and seperate generator cars, you keep saying, its not going to happen though.

 

[Nym]

a 3xx unit powers how many coaches compared to what that IEP will need?

The 390 distribues it between ?3 transformers but that fills all the underfloor space and has a tramsission line over the top at 25KV, they could either fit underfloor engines, or underfloor transformers, they can't have both! Underfloor transformers might be a better option if you wanted underfloor somthing.

You're effectivly needing to double the amount of VoltAmpares that can be provided, and doubling the amount of space needed. If you wanna fit everything under the floors, we'll need to raise the platforms a bit...

 

[RobShipway]

Okay, let's take the class 220/221/222 trains as an example where they have undercarriage engines, to convert these trains to use a pantograpgh requires a transformer coach, however that transformer coach will also have seats within it for passengers. I suspect that IEP will go along the same route as it is technology we have now today that can eb used for these trains and has been used on quite a few trains on the continent for the past 20 plus years.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes in the 5 coach EMU IEP you have two driving cars both unpowered but with full length passenger compartments carrying the transformer equipment one of which is supplying power to the three centre coachs which have electric traction motors. In the 10 car version you have two driving cars both supplying power to 8 centre coachs (4 each though I doubt they would be isolated) however its effectivly not got the dead weight of 2 driving cars doing nothing so theirs a higher power to weight ratio and probably less being supplied to each individual traction motor.

In the bi-mode version the centre cars also carry diesel generators to supply power to the traction equipment.

 

[Daimler]

In the bi-mode version the centre cars also carry diesel generators to supply power to the traction equipment.

Where are you getting this from - I thought the location of the 'diesel generator(s)' hadn't been specified yet.

 

[WatcherZero]

A report in a rail mag 10 months ago around the time of the general election which stated that the current thinking according to inside sources was three small underfloor diesel generators in each centre coach on the bi-mode version.

 

[Zoe]

Where are you getting this from - I thought the location of the 'diesel generator(s)' hadn't been specified yet.

In November last year Philip Hammond said they were down to two options: Locomotive haulage off the wires or underfloor engines.

 

[tbtc]

Wheres the market for 4tph to Bristol? and more importantly, the paths!

The services may be more about connecting the bigger cities/ conurbations than rural areas.

To placate complaints from those out west about not getting HS2, a fast inter-city service at turn up and go frequencies seems the alternative

 

[Zoe]

To placate complaints from those out west about not getting HS2, a fast inter-city service at turn up and go frequencies seems the alternative

But not if the fares are so expensive you have to book in advance.

 

[Daimler]

In November last year Philip Hammond said they were down to two options: Locomotive haulage off the wires or underfloor engines.

Perhaps, but previous posts have suggested that Hitachi are still looking at the two different options.

I'm also not sure if DafT would know the difference between distributed power from a single large 'generator vehicle' and distributed power from several small engines beneath the carriages.

 

[LexyBoy]

Several.

It was supposed to be a joke!

Basically I'm saying that there's so much extra complexity in having (multiple) diesel engines, with one running continuously to provide power when running under the wires. Using a diesel engine for train power - or anything for that matter - isn't "getting something for nothing", it's a total waste of fuel.

Consider the alternative of coupling a diesel (sorry, "self-powered") loco which is push/pull capable and ready for the EMU to arrive:
1) No extra weight of engines and fuel to carry for miles under the wires
2) Less fuel wasted idling vs EDMU since the loco can be in use for more time than the EDMU's engine(s)
3) A more standard fleet, since all units can be pure EMUs, there would be less issues when trains get late/break down/go missing, and more freedom in diagramming.

 

[Zoe]

Consider the alternative of coupling a diesel (sorry, "self-powered") loco which is push/pull capable and ready for the EMU to arrive:
1) No extra weight of engines and fuel to carry for miles under the wires
2) Less fuel wasted idling vs EDMU since the loco can be in use for more time than the EDMU's engine(s)
3) A more standard fleet, since all units can be pure EMUs, there would be less issues when trains get late/break down/go missing, and more freedom in diagramming.

I would have preferred that proposal but again it takes as back to the issue that Hitachi were not offering to build a locomotive and by the time the dft considered that option, Hitachi had already been announced as preferred bidders. If the dft had included the requirment for locomotive haulage off the wires then we may not having this conversation now. As I said in the other thread, the dft required the train to be able to split en route and that isn't easy to do if you have a locomotive.

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps, but previous posts have suggested that Hitachi are still looking at the two different options.

I'm also not sure if DafT would know the difference between distributed power from a single large 'generator vehicle' and distributed power from several small engines beneath the carriages.

DfT knew enough about it to mention underfloor engines explicitly in their November electrification press release, as one of only two options - the other being diesel loco haulage of EMUs when off the wires.

Therefore much of the above debate about whether the engines will be underfloor or not seems to completely ignore what has already been announced.

 

[WatcherZero]

They also specifically ruled out loco hauled on logistics grounds.

 

[Zoe]

They also specifically ruled out loco hauled on logistics grounds.

The logistics that Hitcachi wouldn't build a locomotive?

 

[RobShipway]

Plus surely a class 67 would have enough power to pull along the IEP sets if it was decided to go with a locomotive dragging the IEP sets?

 

[Zoe]

Plus surely a class 67 would have enough power to pull along the IEP sets if it was decided to go with a locomotive dragging the IEP sets?

The IEP itself is quite complex. The locomotive would have to be compatible and I doubt Hitachi would want to release confidential information.

 

[ainsworth74]

Plus surely a class 67 would have enough power to pull along the IEP sets if it was decided to go with a locomotive dragging the IEP sets?

In addition to Zoe's point there might not be enough 67s. Not for all the services that may need dragging as well as their current duties elsewhere on the network.

 

[Mystic Force]

One of the points about the IEP was always that it would be easily converted to EMU only operation as and when elitrification occurs. Once Cardiff is hooked up you can always carry on to Swansea. All those Bi modes just get converted to single source, it buying something more exspensive to fufill more needs. Sounds like joined up thinking to me. As for struggling to haul around the extra engines that seems a little silly to me if you actually do the math. How much does an engine weigh compared to some carriages?

 

[TheWalrus]

By running 4 tph you may attact some people from the M4 and National Express coaches. Remember that the extra services will run via Badminton and it's possible a ten coach formation could run to Bristol Parkway where it would split with five coaches going to Cardiff and five going to Tempel Meads. There wouldn't be any extra paths required via Bath.

I know but I meant east of Reading.