IEP and EMU cascade thread

[northwichcat]

Following on from the mention of IEP in the Manchester-Scotland thread:

The vague answers on IEP and alternatives to IEP are here:

http://www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep/fosterreview/pdf/annex.pdf
Page 27 using the numbering printed on the document or page 29 using the pdf navigation.

Note that it says it is proposed and not definite in the footer.

A point of interest if that the 180s are seen as possible long term replacements for mk3s on FGW routes.

 

[IanXC]

A point of interest if that the 180s are seen as possible long term replacements for mk3s on FGW routes.

And there was me reading all about the 5/8 car 319s (before your edit)... That was just the original IEP proposal.

180s are an interesting read in that document. Option 4 on page 21 is interesting, talking of "Cl180 replacement". It reads as if the stock is significantly older that it is, and suggests a relatively short life remains in Intercity usage at least. Perhaps even being replaced on ECML routes before HSTs...

 

[WatcherZero]

Is it good news they expect to replace the 319's between 2021 and 2026? :P
Straight after Pacer replacement?

 

[hmp455]

According to the DDA (Disability Discrimination Act) all Pacers need to be withdrawn by 2019, so what will be used to 'bridge the gap' :-?

Also, will the 319s be used in 5+3 car formations, (8 peak, 5 off peak, 3 on Suns?)

 

[northwichcat]

Also, will the 319s be used in 5+3 car formations, (8 peak, 5 off peak, 3 on Suns?)

No it'll be 4 or 8 car but on Thames Valley they'll be replaced by 5 and 8 car formations of IEP or an alternative EMU.

That's what I thought originally but edited my post before there were any replies but not before IanXC saw it.

 

[RobShipway]

Following on from the mention of IEP in the Manchester-Scotland thread:

The vague answers on IEP and alternatives to IEP are here:

http://www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep/fosterreview/pdf/annex.pdf
Page 27 using the numbering printed on the document or page 29 using the pdf navigation.

Note that it says it is proposed and not definite in the footer.

A point of interest if that the 180s are seen as possible long term replacements for mk3s on FGW routes.

Is there another link to the above document at all please, as I get a message that the document is damaged when I try to open it even why I save it locally first.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its not damaged, either your download was corrupted or you need to update your adobe reader version.

 

[Yew]

Seems to be quite a lot of bitching about locomotives (ie; stating all the negative points and none of the good ones)

 

[RobShipway]

Yep, it looks like was a problem with Adobe as I have been able to download it okay now and it makes interesting reading. Especially the part at the end where IEP is compared to a PPP project in Australia.

One thing the report for me does seem to suggest is that it would be cheaper to have class 22x trains with pantograph cars provided than having IEP, which is something that I actually stated before within this forum.

Now I know that the class 22x where built in Bruge, but could be possible for any of the machinery to build class 22x be moved to Derby, so that after the Class 379, 172 and London Underground trains builds have completed, Litchurch lane builds the Pantograph cars needed for the existing class 22x trains and build further new build class 22x trains?

 

[WatcherZero]

Itc cheaper because your modifying an existing train rather than building a new one, though of course you have to account for the shortened remaining life. It says Bi-mode conversion would be beneficial when the lines they operate on are electrified, it doesnt suggest building more or cascading them elsewhere saying there not a viable bi-mode replacement option.

Also I dont know since the last was built in 2006 whether their moulds will have been broken up by now.

 

[Nym]

Moulds take no time to make so don't even start on that...

If the 22x conversion was to happen, we would need more 10 car electric IEP (or just IC EMUs of any kind)

Electrification of the MML and Crewe to Chester would be required. And an order for...

30 Class 390 units. (Birmingham - Scotland, London - Chester, Manchester - Scotland)

20 Class 221 units to be converted then. Into 7 car EDMUs.

Either 40 ICEMUs and/or Cascade the 91+Mk4 Fleet to the MML with electrification reaching all the way to Leeds and Doncaster.

27 Class 222 units freed up, into a mix of 5, 7 or 9 car EDMUs.

I think I worked out in another thread that this would be plenty. And that HSTs could live long enough until the Midland Mainline, Cardiff - Swansea & Crewe - Chester to get electrified. And I'm sure Transport Scotland will have completed Edinburgh - Aberdeen by then aswell.

So the EDMU Requirement of the UK would be for (assuming loco haulage on some sections of the network)

ICGW:
Paddington - Hereford
Paddington - Penzance
Paddington - Cheltenham Spa
Paddington - Camarthen
B&H Services (That don't need to be IC to Penzance any more, with a faster route via Bristol available).

Now, there will be 47 units available, I'd say thats more than enough to go around.

I would also be EDMUing all of the XC fleet upto 6/7 car units. That would sort out a fair few of their capacity problems by adding space for 120 more seats per unit. It would also allow to have a proper shop put back in the unit and/or a kitchen!

And finally...

If ICGW doesn't need all of the 221 fleet from VT. I would be having their fleet EDMUed up with up to 7 or 8 car units. And have some services run through Birmingham New Street onto Shrewsbury, Hereford, etc. Or remain with VT for the North Wales services. 10 units wouldn't be a massive microfleet, especially if maintenance is braught all in house at Bombardier at Central Rivers.

 

[WatcherZero]

It only takes a couple of days to make a single mould but they cost a fortune to make, modelling, first impression, fine carving then second impression before having the final mould. To reassemble the production line costs more than a couple of finished trains which is what makes small orders so prohibitive.

 

[Nym]

But if the scheme covered the whole 22x fleet it wouldn't be a 'small order' off the back of a fag packet I'm working out a minimum (for feasable use) order of 168 carrages.

With a bit of re-forming and ambition...

Reform the 222 fleet to become 21 5 car units and 8 6 car units.

All 4 & 5 car units gain two panto / transformer coaches.
All 6 car units gain three panto / transformer coaches.
All with HT transmission accross the roof between transformers.

As all the fastest sections of route would be electrified, the lower top speed and accelaration on diesel only could be lived with. 500bhp/coach instead of the usual 750.

We then need 242 panto/transformer carrages for the 22x fleet... hardly what I'd call a small order!

We then have, for ICXC, ICWC and ICGW a fleet of 107 electrodiesel units, between 6 and 9 cars in length.

 

[TheMysticEgg]

I'm really interested to know what you guys expect to happen to HSTs once the Hitachi SETs start ousting them from the GWML and ECML. Will they be sent to the scrapyard or be cascaded to other IC networks not pencilled in for electrification any time soon such as the MML and Cross Country Route? I've read that Mk.3s could be made to last in service until 2035, but if the powercars are sent to the scrapyard in 2016 does loco hauled stock have a future after IEP is introduced? Just generally interested to know what HSTs will be doing post 2016.

 

[anthony263]

well Some hst's are being kept for the London - Penzance route, i suppose a few could go to crosscountry providing crosscountry are willing to pay for work to be carried out on them. Some could go for preservation, i know the 125 group are interested in preserving at least 1 hst set.

I would be nice to see 1 with a valenta engine in BR livery again

 

[TheMysticEgg]

I would be nice to see 1 with a valenta engine in BR livery again

No doubting that will happen. I hope they revert back to the old headlights too! It will be strange to see HSTs in preservation but I think they have a future even after IEP has displaced them from the Padd-Bris/Cardiff runs. The MML needs extra stock to cope with the increasing amount of passengers in future years. I hope XC will take interest in them too to work the Scotland to South West services - Voyagers just don't cut it in my eyes.