Identity Cards

[underbank]

I am quite sure that any dubious character who wants to get a fake passport (or national identity document) can already do so through a variety of means.

It IS remarkably easy to create a new identity if you know the stages to go through. I used to know a guy who had an "ethnic" name and felt that he was discriminated against because of it. Rather than change his name legally via deed poll, he created a new identity with a "British sounding" name and pretty quickly got a bank account and credit card and then a national insurance number, provisional driving licence and ultimately a passport. None of that involved using fraud (i.e. he never pretended to be another person, never used someone else's birth certificate, always used his own date of birth, just a different name he chose) and as far as I know, he never used his second identity for anything illegal. Very strange to see him open his wallet and get out two credit cards with different names on them.

 

[DavidGrain]

It IS remarkably easy to create a new identity if you know the stages to go through. I used to know a guy who had an "ethnic" name and felt that he was discriminated against because of it. Rather than change his name legally via deed poll, he created a new identity with a "British sounding" name and pretty quickly got a bank account and credit card and then a national insurance number, provisional driving licence and ultimately a passport. None of that involved using fraud (i.e. he never pretended to be another person, never used someone else's birth certificate, always used his own date of birth, just a different name he chose) and as far as I know, he never used his second identity for anything illegal. Very strange to see him open his wallet and get out two credit cards with different names on them.

Watching daytime TV programmes about customs and immigration services in Australia, Canada, USA and the UK, having credit cards with different names gets you arrested immediately. Not sure how that applies to married women who can legally have different names on their credit cards and the credit cards can have a different name from their passports.

 

[etr221]

It IS remarkably easy to create a new identity if you know the stages to go through. I used to know a guy who had an "ethnic" name and felt that he was discriminated against because of it. Rather than change his name legally via deed poll, he created a new identity with a "British sounding" name and pretty quickly got a bank account and credit card and then a national insurance number, provisional driving licence and ultimately a passport. None of that involved using fraud (i.e. he never pretended to be another person, never used someone else's birth certificate, always used his own date of birth, just a different name he chose) and as far as I know, he never used his second identity for anything illegal. Very strange to see him open his wallet and get out two credit cards with different names on them.

Did he actually get a new NI number, or just connect his old one with his new name?

My understanding is that, under UK law, you can just start using a new name, as long as you do not intend fraud, and it becomes your (or at least a) 'legal' name - anything more (identity document (as distinct from an identity using document), deed poll, etc.) is just a convenience.

Edited to add https://assets.publishing.service.g...achment_data/file/194111/informative_note.pdf as a document published by HMG indicating the above, although not 'a definitive statement of law'

But then, although ICAO has established a 'convention for writing names' on travel documents, there are all sorts of issues over name formats - see https://shinesolutions.com/2018/01/08/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names-with-examples/ and elsewhere.

 

[DavidGrain]

Thanks, etr221, for bringing that to my attention. Without going into a digression about names, my sister had a problem in that her name at school was not the same as the name used in the family as the school refused to accept her name. Even now she goes by two different 'given' names depending on where she is.

 

[Modron]

The way that the world is going, in terms of Catfishes and Fraud, I guess that it will be inevitable one day.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The fallacy that photo ID proves who you are!

This gentleman had two passports and two driving licences - both apparently the best way to prove who you are.

A Stoke-on-Trent fraudster leading a double life has been jailed for three-and-a-half years for his part in stealing over £400,000 from a pensioner.

Muhammed Yakoob was part of a plausible conspiracy who managed to convince the victim that her bank account was under attack from conmen.

A total of £125,000 of the victim's savings was transferred into an account the 36-year-old had set up using his fake identity.

An investigation later revealed Yakoob, of Scrivener Road, Cliffe Vale, held two passports and driving licences, one set in is his real name and one in his alias.

Detectives identified Yakoob through CCTV at the bank where he handed over the documents in his other name.

(story continues)

The full details of the case are not relevant but here is the link:
https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/new.../stoke-trent-fraudster-leading-double-2700012

Links to a story in The Sentinel on 2 April 2019 regarding the conviction of a fraudster with a double identity caught only by being recognised on CCTV recordings.

 

[Lucan]

Muhammed Yakoob was part of a plausible conspiracy who managed to convince the victim that her bank account was under attack from conmen.

He was right then.

 

[hooverboy]

The fallacy that photo ID proves who you are!

This gentleman had two passports and two driving licences - both apparently the best way to prove who you are.

(story continues)

The full details of the case are not relevant but here is the link:
https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/new.../stoke-trent-fraudster-leading-double-2700012

Links to a story in The Sentinel on 2 April 2019 regarding the conviction of a fraudster with a double identity caught only by being recognised on CCTV recordings.

doesn't necessarily state where the passports originate from does it?

for western europe,US etc e-passport/machine readable is the norm, but old fashioned still exist in some countries.
easily solved when that data goes biometric .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I heard a story some years ago of an 85 year old lady from the Hebden Bridge area who was asked by an "officious official" for the top two items of ID on his list and the conversation seemed to go.....

Official : "Have you a driving licence?
Lady : "No, I have never driven a car nor do I intend to start at my age."
Official : "Have you a passport?"
Lady : "I've never been further than Scarborough on any visit, so why do I need a passport?"

 

[Lucan]

Such conversations have been much longer than that with my sister-in-law :
Official : "Have you an existing bank/building society account?"
Sister-in-Law : "No, its all in my husband's name."
Official : "Do you have any utility bills in your name?"
Sister-in-Law : "No, all in husbands name."
Official : "Have you a credit card to identify yourself?"
Sister-in-Law : "No."

This was not as some tax dodge on her part. She was just trying to open a bank account. In the absence of a national ID card seems impossible to do that or much else unless you already have such things - Catch-22. In the end the only way she could get anywhere was first to apply for a provisional driving licence, even though she had no intention of learning to drive. I'd like to know how crooks and illegal immigrants manage to get along.

 

[najaB]

I'd like to know how crooks and illegal immigrants manage to get along.

Cash in hand, largely.

 

[OneOffDave]

doesn't necessarily state where the passports originate from does it?

for western europe,US etc e-passport/machine readable is the norm, but old fashioned still exist in some countries.
easily solved when that data goes biometric .

For biometric passports, the biometric data is stored on a chip on the passport. A fake passport will have the biometrics of the person using the fake passport. Will be the same for ID cards unless any organisation that needs/wants to check id is given access to the national database for live checking of biometrics.

With a system like that, if something happens to your records, you're stuffed as how do you prove the system is wrong?

 

[najaB]

A fake passport will have the biometrics of the person using the fake passport.

The thing is that they won't be able to sign the data with the correct private key - so it will fail validation using the public key.

 

[OneOffDave]

The thing is that they won't be able to sign the data with the correct private key - so it will fail validation using the public key.

That assumes the private key hasn't been compromised. If it ever is, then the whole nation would need their documents reissued to ensure forgeries haven't slipped in. Will be difficult to change the private key at regular intervals while maintaining backwards compatibility unless there is a compulsory renewal period for the ID documents (with the costs and disruption that that would cause)

Does any country currently have a national biometric ID system?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The thing is that they won't be able to sign the data with the correct private key - so it will fail validation using the public key.

I'll be quite honest I don't know what a 'public key' is, nor a 'private key'.

However I am assuming that the documents were not forgeries, they were both genuine, just that one was the real person and one was a fake/alias/imposter. Perhaps a genuine 'other' person whose identity was borrowed by the fraudster - knowingly or otherwise, for example as under-cover police officers have taken the names / birth-dates etc of dead babies to create a new persona.

As Mr Smith I apply for (and then receive) a driving licence, a passport and a national ID - all using correct documents and signatures. If necessary they scan my irises. A few weeks later I repeat the process as Mr Jones - this time using genuine but 'borrowed' documents, which will require someone to sign that they know me as Mr Jones. Is biometric information being cross-checked to flag up duplicates? With a large enough population that may occur anyway, albeit a low chance.

I could argue that this case provides the need for a national ID card to prevent fraud.
Equally I could argue that it highlights the futility of relying on any document as being proof of anything other than that it is indeed a document of some kind that I happen to have in my possession.

 

[najaB]

Will be difficult to change the private key at regular intervals while maintaining backwards compatibility unless there is a compulsory renewal period for the ID documents (with the costs and disruption that that would cause)

Well, not really. I don't know for sure how this works but the document could contain a flag that indicates which key was used for the signature, any readers would just have to have access to the library of public keys.

Does any country currently have a national biometric ID system?

It would appear that several are at least in the process of rolling them out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_applying_biometrics

 

[Busaholic]

We have an individual known as 'Theresa May' masquerading as our Prime Minister - has anyone ever asked to see her ID? I seem to remember her early days as an MP brought news that she shared a name with a porn star (possibly spelled slightly differently) - can we be sure they weren't switched at some stage, 'cos this one's been totally out of her depth for years?

 

[najaB]

I seem to remember her early days as an MP brought news that she shared a name with a porn star (possibly spelled slightly differently) - can we be sure they weren't switched at some stage, 'cos this one's been totally out of her depth for years?

And she's doing a pretty good job of ****ing the country!

 

[fowler9]

Ha ha ha.