Ideas to improve connectivity for the North Downs Line including Gatwick services

[southern442]

Moderator note: Spit from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/plans-for-rail-service-from-kent-to-gatwick.209242/

There is not a huge amount of demand on the Tonbridge-Redhill line. I will admit, the only time I've used it was post-COVID, but I believe one of the main reasons for killing off the London-Tonbridge service was that nobody really used it apart from in the places where it was doubling up other services.

The line itself, however, has the potential to be a useful connector to other places where there is demand. I have thought maybe in the (distant) future, when 769's take over the north downs and it becomes 3tph, that one of those could then revert to the old tradition of carrying on to Tonbridge, with the other two going to Gatwick. There is certainly potential for a Kent-Gatwick service, but my question is would this be best as a stopper or an express? A stopper would bring more airport customers direct, but would perhaps put off some of the longer-distance travellers.

In the very long term, one could even connect Kent up to the Cross Country network via the North Downs line if there was potential for that kind of service.

 

[JonathanH]

In the very long term, one could even connect Kent up to the Cross Country network via the North Downs line if there was potential for that kind of service.

There isn't. The traffic goes via London and that would be even more likely once HS2 is built.

 

[Ianno87]

There isn't. The traffic goes via London and that would be even more likely once HS2 is built.

Compare the journey time Ashford-Birmingham via HS1/St Pancras/Euston/HS2 with the possible Ashford-Birmingham journey time via North Downs / Reading.

 

[JonathanH]

Compare the journey time Ashford-Birmingham via HS1/St Pancras/Euston/HS2 with the possible Ashford-Birmingham journey time via North Downs / Reading.

Indeed, I agree completely with you.

I have thought maybe in the (distant) future, when 769's take over the north downs and it becomes 3tph, that one of those could then revert to the old tradition of carrying on to Tonbridge

I suspect that tradition was based on operational convenience rather than any demand for a through service. I think it should be noted that as soon as the Redhill to Tonbridge line was electrified, an attempt to build custom involved running the trains to Victoria.

 

[southern442]

Compare the journey time Ashford-Birmingham via HS1/St Pancras/Euston/HS2 with the possible Ashford-Birmingham journey time via North Downs / Reading.

True that may be, but would a ticket via HS2 and then HS1 not be terribly expensive? Especially considering it is via London. If there is enough of a market that goes from the north to the south east (maybe more so post-COVID if UK seaside destinations come back into fashion) then I think a low-cost option via Reading could be provided once or twice a day.

 

[Ianno87]

True that may be, but would a ticket via HS2 and then HS1 not be terribly expensive? Especially considering it is via London. If there is enough of a market that goes from the north to the south east (maybe more so post-COVID if UK seaside destinations come back into fashion) then I think a low-cost option via Reading could be provided once or twice a day.

How expensive is a ticket via HS1 / Pendolino today? Effectively the current equivalent.

I believe the cheapest tickets available for use on HS1 from Ashford to St Pancras are Avanti Advances to Coventry / Birmingham.

In any case, capacity-hungry railway services aren't planned just to give a minor flow a cheaper ticket.

 

[Bald Rick]

True that may be, but would a ticket via HS2 and then HS1 not be terribly expensive? Especially considering it is via London. If there is enough of a market that goes from the north to the south east (maybe more so post-COVID if UK seaside destinations come back into fashion) then I think a low-cost option via Reading could be provided once or twice a day.

It would probably be more expensive via Reading. Certainly should be as it will cost more to provide the service.

 

[southern442]

How expensive is a ticket via HS1 / Pendolino today? Effectively the current equivalent.

I see your point but as an aside I would imagine realistically HS2 would end up being more expensive than Avanti surely?

 

[edwin_m]

I see your point but as an aside I would imagine realistically HS2 would end up being more expensive than Avanti surely?

Why? There is much less need to ration capacity on HS2 and the whole point of it is to improve the economy by allowing people to move around more easiiy. The HS2 business case assumes fares are comparable to today.

 

[Minstral25]

This is an interesting idea, although as an indirect response to some earlier posts, there is not a huge amount of demand on the Tonbridge-Redhill line. I will admit, the only time I've used it was post-COVID, but I believe one of the main reasons for killing off the London-Tonbridge service was that nobody really used it apart from in the places where it was doubling up other services.

The line itself, however, has the potential to be a useful connector to other places where there is demand. I have thought maybe in the (distant) future, when 769's take over the north downs and it becomes 3tph, that one of those could then revert to the old tradition of carrying on to Tonbridge, with the other two going to Gatwick. There is certainly potential for a Kent-Gatwick service, but my question is would this be best as a stopper or an express? A stopper would bring more airport customers direct, but would perhaps put off some of the longer-distance travellers.

You are correct on low usage on through services killed off Tonbridge to London service.

Tonbridge to Redhill is really only for through traffic to either end (local stations on line have little traffic) and its faster to go direct from Tonbridge to London on SE than through Redhill even with direct trains.

Compare the journey time Ashford-Birmingham via HS1/St Pancras/Euston/HS2 with the possible Ashford-Birmingham journey time via North Downs / Reading.

But why would you consider North Downs for that journey - it is obviously going to be better via London.

However a local getting from Maidstone to Guildford (County Towns of Kent and Surrey) in a car on M25 it is around an hour, by trains via London almost 2 hours, but with joined up trains (i.e. without taking into account waiting times) it would be around an hour and half via North Downs on current stopping services. Improve services, trains, signalling and track surely time could be saved making it more competitive than sitting on M25 and build passenger numbers over time (not that DfT would do that).

 

[Bald Rick]

I see your point but as an aside I would imagine realistically HS2 would end up being more expensive than Avanti surely?

Nope. They will be maximising revenue, and that will mean lots of cheap seats, particularly for the first few years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2020 ==

However a local getting from Maidstone to Guildford (County Towns of Kent and Surrey) in a car on M25 it is around an hour, by trains via London almost 2 hours, but with joined up trains (i.e. without taking into account waiting times) it would be around an hour and half via North Downs on current stopping services. Improve services, trains, signalling and track surely time could be saved making it more competitive than sitting on M25 and build passenger numbers over time (not that DfT would do that).

But who needs to travel from Maidstone to Guildford, or more specifically somewhere near Guildford station to somewhere near Maidstone West station? Not very many people at all, and the zmotorway will almost always win.

 

[Minstral25]

But who needs to travel from Maidstone to Guildford, or more specifically somewhere near Guildford station to somewhere near Maidstone West station? Not very many people at all, and the zmotorway will almost always win.

Judging by the overloaded state of the Southern section of the M25 a lot of people are doing some kind of journey that matches that route. Historically the numbers on trains will be low because by train the route is very slow via London. However a modern fast service could change that and encourage passengers. I wonder how much demand there are for passengers on East-West rail between Oxford & Cambridge but that's still going ahead and I suspect at far higher costs than improving/fixing service from Kent into Surrey on existing lines.

However, it's probably an idea that needs a champion that will never happen and thus needs to be stuck back into speculative ideas where it belongs.

 

[Bald Rick]

Judging by the overloaded state of the Southern section of the M25 a lot of people are doing some kind of journey that matches that route. Historically the numbers on trains will be low because by train the route is very slow via London. However a modern fast service could change that and encourage passengers. I wonder how much demand there are for passengers on East-West rail between Oxford & Cambridge but that's still going ahead and I suspect at far higher costs than improving/fixing service from Kent into Surrey on existing lines.

However, it's probably an idea that needs a champion that will never happen and thus needs to be stuck back into speculative ideas where it belongs.

The M25 is full of people going from their homes to work. If either of those locations is not near a station, or the stations are not on the same route (with or without a change) no train service is going to compete.

EWR is going ahead from Oxford to MK / Bedford. Cambridge is a long way off, and personally I think it as a 50/50 chance at best. Nevertheless, this is designed to connect 3 / 4 large regional centres and two in particular with very well developed knowledge / tech economies, and encourage the construction of several hundred thousand new homes on the line of route.

 

[Roast Veg]

I have used Tonbridge to Redhill quite a few times in the past 10 years - contrary to what Bald Rick has said about ticketing some Not Via London tickets are priced very nicely between Kent and Surrey. It was also handy for getting an earlier train from Clapham Junction to the West country when the Victoria services were running.

There's no need for the service to go to Gatwick though. I'd rather see it linked with the North Downs or the Medway Valley. There's no space at Ashford or Tunbridge Wells any more, unless the Eurostar platforms can be brought into domestic use at great expense.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have used Tonbridge to Redhill quite a few times in the past 10 years - contrary to what Bald Rick has said about ticketing some Not Via London tickets are priced very nicely between Kent and Surrey.

I was referring to tickets between Kent and the north of Reading. Being priced by XC they would likely be more expensive than via London.

 

[JamesRowden]

Connectivity seems to be the issue here. You can't have trains from everywhere to everywhere. One option would be have a lower variety of routes to allow each route to be more frequent so reducing the maximum waiting time for a connection. For example:

• 6tph London-Gatwick via Redhill
• 2tph Reading-Tonbridge via Redhill
• 1tph Reading-Redhill
• 4tph London to East Kent via Tonbridge (as was in the South Eastern franchise specification)

 

[Railwaysceptic]

There are two main reasons why the Redhill/Tonbridge route does not attract large patronage: First, the local population is pretty small and second, a slow, stopping service is of use only to the very local people. To generate huge patronage, you need a fast, limited stop service from, say, Dover calling only at Folkestone, Ashford and Tonbridge before reversing towards Gatwick.

 

[yorksrob]

My family have used the route to get between Ashford and Gatwick airport and found it slow with poor connections.

I always suggest that they go to Hastings and pick up the Victoria train from there.

 

[Roast Veg]

My family have used the route to get between Ashford and Gatwick airport and found it slow with poor connections.

I always suggest that they go to Hastings and pick up the Victoria train from there.

Ashford to Hastings has plenty of its own issues - a poor timetable and inadequate capacity.

 

[30907]

Connectivity seems to be the issue here. You can't have trains from everywhere to everywhere. One option would be have a lower variety of routes to allow each route to be more frequent so reducing the maximum waiting time for a connection. For example:

• 6tph London-Gatwick via Redhill
• 2tph Reading-Tonbridge via Redhill
• 1tph Reading-Redhill
• 4tph London to East Kent via Tonbridge (as was in the South Eastern franchise specification)

Reading-Tonbridge as a through route is really a creation of the mid 60s, as previously there had been only the daily Birkenhead train plus random other workings when the two timetables happened to coincide; I doubt it should be prioritised over Reading-Gatwick.

The major problem for Redhill-Tonbridge is the layout at Redhill. I wonder if a simple bay platform beyond the South end of the Down platform would work, a la Salisbury? It would obviously be no use for a through Tonbridge-Gatwick, but it might facilitate 2tph on the Tonbridge line (which could logically extend to Strood - more operational convenience than passenger demand), which would meet your valid point about frequency.

 

[yorksrob]

Ashford to Hastings has plenty of its own issues - a poor timetable and inadequate capacity.

Yes, the capacity is one thing, but at least it turns up !

Redhill - Tonbridge always seems to be the worst hit with anything.

 

[JonathanH]

There are two main reasons why the Redhill/Tonbridge route does not attract large patronage: First, the local population is pretty small and second, a slow, stopping service is of use only to the very local people. To generate huge patronage, you need a fast, limited stop service from , say, Dover calling only at Folkestone, Ashford and Tonbridge before reversing towards Gatwick.

Huge patronage really isn't on the cards, no matter how fast the journey is. Admittedly, such a fast service was about the only thing not tried between 1994 and 2004 to increase patronage but if there was a perceived market you would have thought it would have already been tried.

Connectivity seems to be the issue here. You can't have trains from everywhere to everywhere. One option would be have a lower variety of routes to allow each route to be more frequent so reducing the maximum waiting time for a connection. For example:

• 6tph London-Gatwick via Redhill
• 2tph Reading-Tonbridge via Redhill
• 1tph Reading-Redhill
• 4tph London to East Kent via Tonbridge (as was in the South Eastern franchise specification)

Reading to Gatwick via Redhill will always make more sense than Reading to Tonbridge via Redhill, there is just more traffic on offer, even with the decline of Gatwick Airport and more people working from home.

I think Reading to Brighton and London Victoria to Dover via Redhill would offer the best opportunities for connectivity at Redhill but it is a big leap from what currently operates.
BUT

• Running a short train to Brighton wouldn't represent the best use of capacity on the Brighton line south of Gatwick given demand can fill long trains to London and it would import delays.
• While Dover to London Victoria via Redhill would allow a flow to Croydon and possibly connections at Clapham Junction, those connections can already be made at Waterloo-Waterloo East. On the other hand, it would appear to facilitate the restoration of a fast service between Tonbridge and Ashford and Redhill and Victoria. I assume it isn't on the cards even if the work at Croydon eventually happens which must now be unlikely.

The major problem for Redhill-Tonbridge is the layout at Redhill. I wonder if a simple bay platform beyond the South end of the Down platform would work, a la Salisbury? It would obviously be no use for a through Tonbridge-Gatwick, but it might facilitate 2tph on the Tonbridge line (which could logically extend to Strood - more operational convenience than passenger demand), which would meet your valid point about frequency.

2tph all day on the Redhill to Tonbridge line doesn't happen because there isn't demand, not because of the layout at Redhill (although putting a platform on the down side for the Tonbridge line would clearly solve some problems).

All in all, I don't see anything changing.

 

[big all]

the through Tonbridge to reading made perfect sense you have a non-electrified line Redhill to Tonbridge that would require 2 units for an hourly service and a Redhill to reading would require 4 units so no spare unit where as a 5hr Tonbridge to reading and back allows the spare unit to cover maintenance.

Its worth remembering the tadpoles were probably the hardest worked units only working stopping trains as half the time they would start of at st Leonards at around 4am and Finnish around 11pm
and the other half would be around 5 30am start and Finnish at st Leonards after midnight.

 

[RichJF]

Having been a resident near Redhill & user of the Tonbridge line in my previous incarnation (before I moved to East Grinstead), I think it would make sense than rather then alter the service to run through to Gatwick, it would make more sense to merge the Medway Valley and Redhill service. You could run a terminator to Tunbridge Wells as well.
Whenever I change onto the Redhill train at Tonbridge (coming from East Kent) there a number of passengers that stay on for the entirity of the journey.

There is a large population that would benefit from the connectivity to Gatwick that Thameslink/Southern offers but without trying to reverse or fit extra paths into an already congested Redhill layout.

 

[30907]

the through Tonbridge to reading made perfect sense you have a non-electrified line Redhill to Tonbridge that would require 2 units for an hourly service and a Redhill to reading would require 4 units so no spare unit where as a 5hr Tonbridge to reading and back allows the spare unit to cover maintenance.

Entirely agree - it was a very economical way of working a decent basic service (with the strategic use of the 33-hauled sets to cope with peaks and parcels) and probably saved several stations from closure.

 

[PTR 444]

How a brand new hourly service from Dover Priory to Gatwick Airport? Such a service could run as an express to Tonbridge then take over the stopper from there to Redhill. Starting at Dover, the calling pattern would be as follows:

Folkestone Central
Ashford International
Tonbridge
Leigh
Penshurst
Edenbridge
Godstone
Nutfield
Redhill
Gatwick Airport

If Eurostar were still serving Ashford, such a service would require only one change to get from Gatwick to parts of continental Europe by rail, eliminating the need for air links between the two.

 

[southern442]

How a brand new hourly service from Dover Priory to Gatwick Airport? Such a service could run as an express to Tonbridge then take over the stopper from there to Redhill. Starting at Dover, the calling pattern would be as follows:

Folkestone Central
Ashford International
Tonbridge
Leigh
Penshurst
Edenbridge
Godstone
Nutfield
Redhill
Gatwick Airport

If Eurostar were still serving Ashford, such a service would require only one change to get from Gatwick to parts of continental Europe by rail, eliminating the need for air links between the two.

I like that idea but I don't think it should have to take over the Tonbridge stopper. There's plenty of space on the line for them both to run at once, and it would only be saving 2 3-car units.

 

[JonathanH]

How a brand new hourly service from Dover Priory to Gatwick Airport? Such a service could run as an express to Tonbridge then take over the stopper from there to Redhill. Starting at Dover, the calling pattern would be as follows:

Folkestone Central
Ashford International
Tonbridge
Leigh
Penshurst
Edenbridge
Godstone
Nutfield
Redhill
Gatwick Airport

If Eurostar were still serving Ashford, such a service would require only one change to get from Gatwick to parts of continental Europe by rail, eliminating the need for air links between the two.

There is an argument that it is better to point the service at Canterbury than Folkestone and Dover as even if the population of Canterbury is less, the tourist / student demand is greater. Redhill to Canterbury might just about be possible in an hour with stops only at Tonbridge and Ashford but the trains would almost certainly be practically empty most of the time, even without the current issues.

 

[PTR 444]

There is an argument that it is better to point the service at Canterbury than Folkestone and Dover as even if the population of Canterbury is less, the tourist / student demand is greater. Redhill to Canterbury might just about be possible in an hour with stops only at Tonbridge and Ashford but the trains would almost certainly be practically empty most of the time, even without the current issues.

If you’re pointing the service in the direction of Canterbury, you might as well extend it all the way to Margate. Alternatively, you could send it down to Dover via the Minster west chord and Sandwich.

Another possible idea for this service could be to add the local station calls between Tonbridge and Ashford to it, while removing them from one of the Kent - Charing Cross services. It would slow the service down but would be made up by having a faster Ashford - Charing Cross service, just like it was before HS1.

 

[JonathanH]

If you’re pointing the service in the direction of Canterbury, you might as well extend it all the way to Margate. Alternatively, you could send it down to Dover via the Minster west chord and Sandwich.

Another possible idea for this service could be to add the local station calls between Tonbridge and Ashford to it, while removing them from one of the Kent - Charing Cross services. It would slow the service down but would be made up by having a faster Ashford - Charing Cross service, just like it was before HS1.

All a bit academic as there really isn't any way it could be viable - but Redhill to Canterbury would be about an hour fast and about an hour and a half with all the stops. It isn't obvious why a fast Charing Cross to Ashford service is needed as most of the flow from Ashford probably now goes to St Pancras. It would probably be worth putting Headcorn and Staplehurst in any Gatwick to Canterbury service but not run it as the stopper.