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Ideas for possible future use for 22x's

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The Ham

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Given that the 222's are not likely to be free early enough to help XC gain more capacity there is a risk (to Voyager Leasing) that XC have to look at bi-modal units. The reason it is a risk is that once XC need some they may look to replace all.

In reality it is likely that XC will end up with a mix with some Voyager end coaches scrapped/stored/used as parts to enable longer units to be formed.

However, what could happen to the 22x's if XC went for a new fleet of bi-modal trains?

One option could be Chiltern to replace their loco hauled sets and to allow them to cascade their existing DMU's to provide more capacity and replace the bubble cars. (Again lengthening units to 7 or 8 coaches).

Another option could be for SWT to use 10 coach units on a bi hourly frequency for their Exeter to Waterloo services with the other hour involving a change at Salisbury or Yeovil to an EMU. The shuttle could be run by 7 or 8 coach 22x's. (Bearing in mind this would probably be in the franchise after the need one, so circa 2026, and electrification could have got part way to Exeter but may be a good few years of being complete - I.e circa 2035).
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Another option could be for SWT to use 10 coach units on a bi hourly frequency for their Exeter to Waterloo services with the other hour involving a change at Salisbury or Yeovil to an EMU. The shuttle could be run by 7 or 8 coach 22x's. (Bearing in mind this would probably be in the franchise after the need one, so circa 2026, and electrification could have got part way to Exeter but may be a good few years of being complete - I.e circa 2035).

How many years have SWTs existing DMUs got before they could be considered life expired? Would it tie in with when the 222s might possibly start to become available?
 

The Ham

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How many years have SWTs existing DMUs got before they could be considered life expired? Would it tie in with when the 222s might possibly start to become available?

The 159's were built circa 1990, so in 2025 they will be about 35 years old, they could have some life left but possibly not much and even if they did they could be used for a stop gap elsewhere if needed. I wouldn't expect that the 22x's would be free much before then, especially if they go for a full refurbishment and a bit of testing in their longer lengths.
 

Sparks807Evo

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Chiltern wouldn't be a bad idea in the long term provided the 100mph max running would be fine for 125mph units. However Chiltern seem content with their MK3s and 68s for the foreseeable future (and must say they are excellent rolling stock) and 168s, which again are great units to travel in. If they ever were to receive the 22Xs to replace the loco stock, it would allow the benefit of 168s to run in longer formations. However I still get a feeling Chiltern may try and nudge in and get some of the ex Scotrail 170s.

The SWT option would be ideal - the 159s will be getting on by that point and the 22Xs would allow a faster journey potentially as they can exploit the higher speeds up to 100mph. However in order to offer the capacity increase they would need to run in 10 cars formations - whilst the 221s and 220s could be formed up to do this in sufficent numbers, it wouldn't really be a idea for the 222s considering there would unlikely be enough to form enough 10 car sets out of 222s alone to replace the 159s and their inability to be coupled up to 220s/221s.


I still feel the best method of getting the extra XC capacity is resolving the issue of the 221s being used at WCML - it is particularly ludricous we have 125mph DEMUS running long lengths under wires, where with some additional electric and bi-mode stock, the issue could be resolved.
 
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Haydn1971

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With a huge batch of EMU/bi-modes for XC, and a big fleet of EMU's for MML, there will be some continued uses for the 22x fleets within both XC & EMT, but I'm also expecting some cascades of these units to replace 158/159's on longer regional routes, allowing the 158/159's to be moved onto routes that don't need anything more than 2-3 carriage units.
 

The Ham

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Chiltern wouldn't be a bad idea in the long term provided the 100mph max running would be fine for 125mph units. However Chiltern seem content with their MK3s and 68s for the foreseeable future (and must say they are excellent rolling stock) and 168s, which again are great units to travel in. If they ever were to receive the 22Xs to replace the loco stock, it would allow the benefit of 168s to run in longer formations. However I still get a feeling Chiltern may try and nudge in and get some of the ex Scotrail 170s.

With faster units it could well be that sections of lines could be investigated as to whether faster line speeds were possible over sensible lengths, possibly without the need for much if any actual physical works.

It is worth remembering that if rail growth continues then there could be need for the Scotrail 170's elsewhere on the network.

The SWT option would be ideal - the 159s will be getting on by that point and the 22Xs would allow a faster journey potentially as they can exploit the higher speeds up to 100mph. However in order to offer the capacity increase they would need to run in 10 cars formations - whilst the 221s and 220s could be formed up to do this in sufficent numbers, it wouldn't really be a idea for the 222s considering there would unlikely be enough to form enough 10 car sets out of 222s alone to replace the 159s and their inability to be coupled up to 220s/221s.

I was assuming that by 2025 (or very soon after) that wires would have been installed between Salisbury and Basingstoke. In doing so it would only require DMU's for the Exeter services, Thus you could provide 1 train ever 2 hours which ran between Exeter and Waterloo (6 sets with 10 coaches, which would require 24 of the 34 sets which make up the 220 fleet) and then 1 train every other hour which ran a shuttle between Exeter and Salisbury (or Westbury once the wires reach Yeovil) which would require a further few units (which could form 4 sets with 7 coaches which would require the remaining 10 sets of the 220 fleet).

Although as the journey time from Waterloo to Exeter is Waterloo and be ready to start again would likely need 8 hours before a unit was ready to go again it would only need 4 of those 6 units, likewise the sets with 7 coaches would have a 5 hour loop (Exeter to Salisbury and back), so would only need 3 units.

I still feel the best method of getting the extra XC capacity is resolving the issue of the 221s being used at WCML - it is particularly ludricous we have 125mph DEMUS running long lengths under wires, where with some additional electric and bi-mode stock, the issue could be resolved.

If XC got all 20 sets of 221's from the ICWC then it would help, in that all the current fleet of 220's could be run semi-permanently paired up (maybe a few edges of the network would see a unit left behind to form the return portion to reduce the total number of units needed) and still probably have enough slack in the system to replace the HST's.

However (assuming the retention or other replacement for the HST's) it would give a total fleet capacity increase of 40%. Given that passenger numbers have doubled in the last 20 years I would suggest that 40% would probably just bring XC to where they should be now and probably wouldn't allow for growth between now and a possible franchise start date of 2019 and certainly doesn't allow for growth to closer to the end of the franchise (circa 2028 - although there will be extra capacity in the form of HS2 phase one from 2026 between Manchester and Birmingham, although this is small section of the XC network and would mostly only benefit those travelling between those two locations so may not impact XC's total passenger numbers very much).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think we'll see them replace HST's in Scotland eventually.

Quite possibly, but in what sort of numbers?

Although Scotland will have 27 HST's and there are 27 sets of 222's, I doubt that it will be quite that simple. As when the HST's need replacing Scotrail may not need that many units (due to electrification) but may need longer units (due to passenger growth).

It also depends on what is planned in terms of electrification beyond 2025 (the start of the next franchise) it could be better to keep the HST's for a few more years (circa 2028) and then just replace with EMU's or get bimodal units.
 

NSEFAN

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The 222s would not be well suited to the Waterloo - Exeter route because they would result in a reduction in peak-time capacity. The 158s and 159s aught to be instead replaced with units similar to 444s, which strike a good balance between longer distance and outer-suburban commuter traffic.
 

edwin_m

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With a huge batch of EMU/bi-modes for XC, and a big fleet of EMU's for MML, there will be some continued uses for the 22x fleets within both XC & EMT, but I'm also expecting some cascades of these units to replace 158/159's on longer regional routes, allowing the 158/159's to be moved onto routes that don't need anything more than 2-3 carriage units.

I don't see it. 158/159 are pretty much ideal for what they do. Their routes don't need the 125mph capability of a 22x unit, and they certainly don't need the extra weight and cost for a lower carrying capacity per coach!

If I had any money I'd put it on replacing the 170s on Nottingham-Cardiff, to give XC a more uniform fleet and get a journey time and capacity benefit from higher speeds (which should by then have had some upgrades south of Birmingham). Maybe the Birmingham-Leicester/Stansted route too, but only if the Sprinter differential speed issue can be sorted. Also Chiltern because even a 22x is probably cheaper to run than loco and coaches, and there may be enough of their route where 125mph is possible to make it worth doing. Plus replacement of HSTs on whichever Scottish routes haven't been electrified.
 

The Ham

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The 222s would not be well suited to the Waterloo - Exeter route because they would result in a reduction in peak-time capacity. The 158s and 159s aught to be instead replaced with units similar to 444s, which strike a good balance between longer distance and outer-suburban commuter traffic.

If a 10 coach 22x (one unit) with the same seating configuration as XC's Voyagers was created it would have a marginal decrease in seating capacity on that single service (bearing in mind I am talking about a direct service into Waterloo every two hours).

By my reckoning 8 standard (central) coaches of standard class is 528 plus two coaches (end) of first class is 52 seats, giving a total of 580 seats.

A nine coach 159 train has 516 standard class seats and 72 first class seats, giving a total of 588 seats. Based on this a 10 coach train would have about 655 seats

If the remainder of the services where run by 444's (or similar) then the would have 598 standard class seats and 70 first class seats, giving a total of 668 seats. Although there is scope for a few (about 6 per unit) extra seats by removing the buffets from the 444's.

That would give the total number of seats into London over an two hour period as 3x680 (including the extra 10 seats) plus 1x580 which is circ 2620 seats vs circa 2620 seats using all 10 coach 15x's. As such it would be broadly the same.

You could go down the route of a new 5 coach DMU (if based on a diesel 444) to increase capacity a little (to circa 2712) but how long would such a train be useful for? The answer to that depends on how fast electrification progresses and when new services to Salisbury can start.

Once Crossrail 2 opens and/or digital signalling into London allows another service or services to Salisbury (Crossrail 2 is talked about opening in 2030), then capacity per train starts to become less critical (at least for a while)
 

D6975

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I still feel the best method of getting the extra XC capacity is resolving the issue of the 221s being used at WCML - it is particularly ludricous we have 125mph DEMUS running long lengths under wires, where with some additional electric and bi-mode stock, the issue could be resolved.

Agreed, the sooner WCML Birmingham-Scotlands are separated from the Euston-Scotlands the better.
Baby Pendos as proposed in various past franchise bids could do this service, followed by the likes of Blackpool etc as more wires go up, gradually releasing the 221s for services that run significant distances away from the juice.
 

The Ham

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Agreed, the sooner WCML Birmingham-Scotlands are separated from the Euston-Scotlands the better.
Baby Pendos as proposed in various past franchise bids could do this service, followed by the likes of Blackpool etc as more wires go up, gradually releasing the 221s for services that run significant distances away from the juice.

Although there is the possible problem of fumes at New Street which may need to be resolved, as such the DfT could ask XC to reduce the number of diesel engines which are required to run services in and out of that station. As such XC could be forced to use bimodal trains and the 22x's could be forced to go elsewhere.
 

Bletchleyite

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Agreed, the sooner WCML Birmingham-Scotlands are separated from the Euston-Scotlands the better.

Why?

The joined-up services are both popular and convenient, being able to well-fill full-size Pendolino/double Voyager sets.

By all means get the Voyagers off them by way of a new build - but I'd suggest that new build would be of full-length EMUs, be they New Pendolino derived, or be they non-tilt IEP for Euston-Brum self contained services (125mph non-tilt would only lose a few minutes on those short runs).

The change has been made, the market has been grown, the service has been improved. There is no sense going back now; a "baby Pendolino" would be about as useful as a 3-car 185 on Manchester to Scotland.
 
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gordonthemoron

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having endured a 5 car voyager from Edinburgh to Crewe last year, I'd say all Euston-Brum-Scotland services should be at least 9 carriages
 

Bletchleyite

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having endured a 5 car voyager from Edinburgh to Crewe last year, I'd say all Euston-Brum-Scotland services should be at least 9 carriages

I agree. Many services even have the demand for 11.

What VT did was very clever - increasing capacity by better use of rolling stock and improving the service into the bargain. MKC-Scotland is now much less fraught, for instance (and the connection still works for a faster journey by changing at Crewe if you prefer that).
 
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The Ham

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Going back to Chiltern, if they got all the XC 221's and took the central coaches from half the fleet to make 11 units with 8 coaches, that would be enough to replace the loco sets and the 4 coach sets (assuming that they were running in pairs).

That would then mean that the rest of their DMU's could be used to provide more services and/or more capacity as well as allowing the bubble card to retire.
 

D6975

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You're missing the point.
The only reason the Brum-Scotlands are overloaded is because they now come from Euston.
If they were just Brum-Scotland, a 7 car set would be sufficient. They used to be a single 221 and were well loaded but not overcrowded.
How anyone can claim the Euston-Brum-Scotlands are a success is beyond me - it's resulted in extended journey times, long dwell times to slot into paths, 5 and 10 car voyagers running completely under the wires and chronic overcrowding when formed of just 5 cars.
Dividing the passengers from a Euston-Brum-Scotland service to one Eus-Scotland direct and one Brum-Scotland would be a great improvement.
 

The Ham

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You're missing the point.
The only reason the Brum-Scotlands are overloaded is because they now come from Euston.
If they were just Brum-Scotland, a 7 car set would be sufficient. They used to be a single 221 and were well loaded but not overcrowded.
How anyone can claim the Euston-Brum-Scotlands are a success is beyond me - it's resulted in extended journey times, long dwell times to slot into paths, 5 and 10 car voyagers running completely under the wires and chronic overcrowding when formed of just 5 cars.
Dividing the passengers from a Euston-Brum-Scotland service to one Eus-Scotland direct and one Brum-Scotland would be a great improvement.

If ICWC were to get some more 11 coach tilting trains, they could use their existing 9 coach sets for Birmingham to Glasgow and have enough units to run a Euston Glasgow service.

That would then free up sufficient numbers of 221's fit them to either pass onto others or to run some more connecting services which require diesel units. Such as more North Wales services.

That then just leaves the 27 sets of 222's which I think would be sent to Scotland to replace the HST's. As there would be less needed (due to electrification) then the 4 coach sets would be formed into longer sets.

Depending on numbers and capacity there would either be a mix of 5 and 6 coach trains or slightly fewer units of 6 and 7 coaches.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That results in the following:

222's to Scotland (mix of 5 and 6 or 6 and 7 depending on numbers required

220's to SWT as 10 and 7 coach sets

XC's 221's to Chiltern to firm 11 sets with 8 coaches

ICWC keep some of their 221's with possibly with a few sets going to Chiltern so they have another two to four 8 coach sets.
 
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jopsuk

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I still think it was a shame the hybrid scheme was cancelled. I'd have taken it further and applied for a derogation to allow new build diesel intermediates too, and taken the fleets to:

220: all 5-car
221: 6 car at Virgin, 8-car at XC
222: all 5-car or 10-car (mixed fleet)

Plus some additional Pendolinos to stop diesel-under-the-wires running...
 

SpacePhoenix

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I still think it was a shame the hybrid scheme was cancelled. I'd have taken it further and applied for a derogation to allow new build diesel intermediates too, and taken the fleets to:

220: all 5-car
221: 6 car at Virgin, 8-car at XC
222: all 5-car or 10-car (mixed fleet)

Plus some additional Pendolinos to stop diesel-under-the-wires running...

If they were all 6-car units would that have been any better (could all stations that 22x units call at handle a 12-car train)?
 

gimmea50anyday

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The EUS-BHM-Scot is a remnant of XC days. The service used to run from the south west to scotland via warrington as opposed to the BMH-scotland services via Manchester or York. Think the routes were coloured blue (VT1) on the XC map iirc. When XC was remapped the WCML services was handed partly to VWC (BHM) and partly to TPE (MAN, the VT2 routes that had split to maintain reliability) In order to save paths thru birmingham it made sense to merge this BHM-scotland service with an EBW working and created a through train to many of the intermediate stations.
 

IanXC

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ScotRail looks to me like an increasingly unlikely prospect for any 22x stock. Given that a suitable service life will be required from the refurbished HSTs and that electrification seems likely to reach Aberdeen at the start of the 2030s and Inverness later that decade.

That would probably result in a service life of about 20 years for the HSTs with ScotRail, which seems a little beyond what I'd otherwise expect given the length of service already achieved. It is though, worth remembering that the previous Scottish electrification timetable did not reflect HST usage. I expect to see an update to bring Aberdeen and Inverness Intl line with the expected service life of the HSTs, and some other routes put back.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The EUS-BHM-Scot is a remnant of XC days. The service used to run from the south west to scotland via warrington as opposed to the BMH-scotland services via Manchester or York. Think the routes were coloured blue (VT1) on the XC map iirc. When XC was remapped the WCML services was handed partly to VWC (BHM) and partly to TPE (MAN, the VT2 routes that had split to maintain reliability) In order to save paths thru birmingham it made sense to merge this BHM-scotland service with an EBW working and created a through train to many of the intermediate stations.

Long before that, Scotland/North West services to the South West ran via Crewe, Hereford and the Severn Tunnel to Bristol and beyond.
The service included the Scotland/south west sleeper, and several Liverpool/Manchester services to the south west.
They were all diverted via Birmingham in, I think, 1970, and integrated into the BR XC service, leaving only local services on the Marches route.
Crewe-Bristol via Hereford could still be a competitive route today if anybody wanted to bring it back.
 

The Ham

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I still think it was a shame the hybrid scheme was cancelled. I'd have taken it further and applied for a derogation to allow new build diesel intermediates too, and taken the fleets to:

220: all 5-car
221: 6 car at Virgin, 8-car at XC
222: all 5-car or 10-car (mixed fleet)

Plus some additional Pendolinos to stop diesel-under-the-wires running...

IIRC, one of the problems with project Thor was the need for two pantograph vehicles for train lengths of 6 out more, by my reckoning that would have resulted in the following:

34*5 coach 220's
20*5 coach (ICWC) 221's
2*5 coach (XC) 221's
21*8 coach (XC) 221's
9*5 coach 222's
18*8 coach 222's (+1 normal Coach)
 

Class 170101

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Might have been related to pan bounce at over 100mph. Pairs of Voyagers would still operate over 100mph on the ECML (and elsewhere). LM only in the last year or so got clearance to operate their 350s at 110mph in 8 and 12 carriage formations.

Pendlinos operate with one pantograph for 11 vehicles on one train.
 
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