Ideas for future of displaced rolling stock

[js1000]

Being reported in one of the Northern threads that another Northern depot is being trained on 323's.

Wouldn't be a surprise though. Northern are the only franchise realistically interested in taking the 323s. And even then they have enough EMUs with the 319s and 331s coming online soon.

That being said there are still opportunities for the 323s. The Stoke-on-Trent route is better serviced by the 323s rather than the 319s due to fast acceleration. The 323s could also work the Bolton route as a six coach train once electrification is complete which would be very welcome for passengers who have had to suffer a poor service on that route for a few years now.

Given there are no other takers Porterbrook could lease the 323 fleet to them at a peppercorn rate to keep them occupied and as compensation for the delayed 769 trains. This will allow them to explore the possibilities of converting to diesel/battery bi-mode in the coming years or create 4 coach sets.

The Northern 323s are due for C6 tests from next month so we'll should find out soon enough where their long-term future lies.

 

[The Ham]

Given there are no other takers Porterbrook could lease the 323 fleet to them at a peppercorn rate to keep them occupied and as compensation for the delayed 769 trains. This will allow them to explore the possibilities of converting to diesel/battery bi-mode in the coming years or create 4 coach sets.

Quite, it's better to be being paid something for the units than having to pay to store them.

 

[leo knight]

Introduce a new northern electric network linking Doncaster to newcastle/ Morpeth stoppers using class 360 or either 379 maybe chuck in 323s
You could even extend northern into scotrail territory on the east side into Edinburgh depending on paths after all northern goes into dumfries on the west side.
Another option or idea is to introduce a new train company that operates through the night to use up surplus stock(24 hour railway) night rail would be a good name!

 

[59CosG95]

Introduce a new northern electric network linking Doncaster to newcastle/ Morpeth stoppers using class 360 or either 379 maybe chuck in 323s
You could even extend northern into scotrail territory on the east side into Edinburgh depending on paths after all northern goes into dumfries on the west side.
Another option or idea is to introduce a new train company that operates through the night to use up surplus stock(24 hour railway) night rail would be a good name!

Where to begin?

Lack of capacity north of Doncaster. Both with pathing and power supply.
TPE are due to extend their Newcastle service into Edinburgh using 802s.
TPE are also a 24hr railway.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Personally speaking it would be great to see GTR offload the 365s and someone use them as they are still bloody excellent and a dream to drive!

30 x 707 = 150 vehicles

29 x 387 = 116 vehicles
21 x 365 = 84 vehicles

Net loss of 50 vehicles.

So in theory, take the 387s away and give them to someone else; and do the same for the 365s. Upgrade the 707s for 110nph operations and take 15 707s and turn them into 4 car; in turn making 15 707s 6 car. Re-fit the 707s to be used on Peterborough fast trains as well as on the peak Baldock / Royston / Welwyn (etc).

As we all know by now IEP will be going to Kings Lynn under the franchise re-jig, use them on the Lynn services hourly. The LNER mob will need another fleet for Ely, Peterborough fast and Baldock additional among others - so make this into the 707s. They could run as 8 or 12 car; and be supplemented by IEP on certain services.

 

[leo knight]

I forgot to mention in my last post it would be a 24 hour railway(I were not clear) for the whole of the UK with night rail at night using surplus stock. An example might be that you could also convert mark 3 or mark 4 carriages into sleepers and introduce more sleepers across the country using 125s or 225s.
The surplus units eg 360 379s etc would operate on various parts of the network at night under the brand night rail an example would be a 360 could work in the same region as now under the new brand or a 365 could work the Thames valleys through the night under the brand etc etc

 

[4-SUB 4732]

30 379's might be overkill for EMR's Corby service because 4 x 4 or 5-car 222's are used for the hourly service. So 3 in traffic, 1 spare. Journey time 1 hour 10 minutes (110-125 mph diesel timings). For 2tph 18 379's would be the max, including some 12-car operation imo.

360's and/or 365's would be good fit for Scotrail because those units could replace the 318's and displace more DMU's post-2020.

At peak times, a half-hourly service from Corby with 12 coaches would likely require 18 sets. This is admittedly overkill so a more suitable fleet might be required.

Obviously the most sensible thing, no matter what anybody says, is to extend these new half-hourly ‘Super Express’ Thameslink services (Bedford, Luton, St Albans, Pancras) back to Corby with 700s...

 

[leo knight]

A Hst or 225 could work sleepers on the great western or east coast or even an Aberdeen to kx sleeper at night or London to carmarthen etc

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Introduce a new northern electric network linking Doncaster to newcastle/ Morpeth stoppers using class 360 or either 379 maybe chuck in 323s
You could even extend northern into scotrail territory on the east side into Edinburgh depending on paths after all northern goes into dumfries on the west side.
Another option or idea is to introduce a new train company that operates through the night to use up surplus stock(24 hour railway) night rail would be a good name!

This is horrible

 

[4-SUB 4732]

That said, I have long-advocated some sort of 1tp2h (or similar) stopping service from Newcastle to Edinburgh.

As we move to 2tph LNER, 1tph XC and 1tph TPE, if we could just get some form of ‘standard’ timetable between Newcastle and Edinburgh it could work. Admittedly co-operation between ScotRail and Northern would be needed so that the Dunbar service is extended every 2 hours (same of the Morpeth); but with the fast acceleration they could work. Additionally, if they had battery technology (I know, shoot me...), they could work around from Morpeth to Bedlington, Blyth, Seghill and back onto the main; as well as being able to get to MetroCentre and back it in a bold world even go at least as far as Washington on the Leamside every 30 minutes.

 

[43096]

I forgot to mention in my last post it would be a 24 hour railway(I were not clear) for the whole of the UK with night rail at night using surplus stock. An example might be that you could also convert mark 3 or mark 4 carriages into sleepers and introduce more sleepers across the country using 125s or 225s.
The surplus units eg 360 379s etc would operate on various parts of the network at night under the brand night rail an example would be a 360 could work in the same region as now under the new brand or a 365 could work the Thames valleys through the night under the brand etc etc

Who is paying for it, because the passenger revenue will come nowhere near covering the cost.

 

[leo knight]

Maybe some passengers will decide to travel at night to avoid overcrowding and rush hour crushes etc. This way there will thousands of more seats available and it gives commuters more flex in working hours eg a typical commuter or leisure traveller could leave Edinburgh or Newcastle at 3 in morning and b in london before 6 or 7am.it would solve the overcrowding issue all over the country and would be balanced out more. The revenue would still come from some of the existing custom and gain poss more custom as their is more flex travelling.
It would gain more sleeper revenue for long distance travellers from New sleeper trains from Scotland to say cornwall with cross country sleeper trains etc.
There could be less delays and engineering work would continue to happen at weekends. It would make rail travel less stressful in the uk as a whole.
Parts of London underground are 24hour now.

 

[The Ham]

I think that night trains could work for long distance travel, however timetables would have to be flexible to allow for changes in routes.

However if you limited the number of stops, say 5 or 6 between Edinburgh and Plymouth, and emailed everyone the exact station call times a week in advance most people would be able to manage.

If you needed to be somewhere for a set time in the middle of the night chances are you'll carry on driving.

 

[43096]

Maybe some passengers will decide to travel at night to avoid overcrowding and rush hour crushes etc. This way there will thousands of more seats available and it gives commuters more flex in working hours eg a typical commuter or leisure traveller could leave Edinburgh or Newcastle at 3 in morning and b in london before 6 or 7am.it would solve the overcrowding issue all over the country and would be balanced out more. The revenue would still come from some of the existing custom and gain poss more custom as their is more flex travelling.
It would gain more sleeper revenue for long distance travellers from New sleeper trains from Scotland to say cornwall with cross country sleeper trains etc.
There could be less delays and engineering work would continue to happen at weekends. It would make rail travel less stressful in the uk as a whole.
Parts of London underground are 24hour now.

There's a reason (actually, several) why it hasn't been done already....

 

[TRAX]

Apologies if this has been covered before, but do we have an idea about where the Class 379s might end up once the GA Flirts enter service ?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think suitable ways of using these redundant stock can be found without necessarily keeping the trains in their original formations.

By removing all intermediate carriages from eight 707 units and re-adding them to the remaining twenty two, this creates twenty two six carriage units which could operate as eleven additional twelve carriage trains alongside Thameslink-Great Northern’s 700 units.

Alternatively, by taking and refurbishing the ninety intermediate 707 carriages, you could lengthen twenty-two of Thameslink-Great Northern’s eight carriage Class 700 trains to twelve coaches.

Similarly, 57x intermediate carriages will soon be made redundant from the 360s. This is a perfect number to lengthen all 28x Class 450/5 units to six carriages (with one spare).

This means they can continue to couple to make twelve carriages (using less units) and they can also operate with more capacity when they operate solo.

The 60x intermediate carriages made free by Greater Anglia’s 379s is also more than enough to lengthen all of the externally similar Class 377/6 and 377/7s to six coaches, to allow twelve carriage working. They both have the new style Electrostar exterior and could be easily refurbished.

Just a few little different ideas there.

 

[GW43125]

By removing all intermediate carriages from eight 707 units and re-adding them to the remaining twenty two, this creates twenty two six carriage units which could operate as eleven additional twelve carriage trains alongside Thameslink-Great Northern’s 700 units.

Alternatively, by taking and refurbishing the ninety intermediate 707 carriages, you could lengthen twenty-two of Thameslink-Great Northern’s eight carriage Class 700 trains to twelve coaches.

Trouble with 707s is this would destroy the power-to-weight ratio as only the two driving cars are powered.

 

[swt_passenger]

Trouble with 707s is this would destroy the power-to-weight ratio as only the two driving cars are powered.

Yes, it all sounds so easy but it’s the same with adding/swapping cars between 450s and 360s etc. The suggestions need a caveat that additional motors and traction packages should be fitted where necessary, which of course makes it all far less likely.

There’s really no need for TT-ONR-NRN to specifically earmark the 28 x 450/5s either, as they are being fully reverted to the same condition as the rest anyway during present alterations. As of now they have only a few standard seats (and waste bins!) missing, the first class area had already been replaced a couple of years ago.

 

[VT 390]

Let's not forget that South Western Railway is soon going to get rid of the 30 brand-new Class 707 EMUs.

I do wonder what future they might have, given that a lot of (new) franchises in the UK have already placed their orders for new stock (Northern, Wales & Borders, West Midlands Railway/London Northwestern Railway...).
Could the 707s actually end up with nowhere to go ?

What about to Southern to replace the 455's

 

[trainmania100]

Island line could replace their aging 1938 stocks with newer tube trains which retire

 

[VT 390]

Island line could replace their aging 1938 stocks with newer tube trains which retire

Could the island line have an electric version of the D train or is this to large to fit on the island line as it is converted from sub-surface stock not tube stock?

 

[trainmania100]

Could the island line have an electric version of the D train or is this to large to fit on the island line as it is converted from sub-surface stock not tube stock?

Wouldn't want them catching fire on the pier...

 

[leo knight]

Could the island line have an electric version of the D train or is this to large to fit on the island line as it is converted from sub-surface stock not tube stock?

They would not be able to fit through ryde tunnel as its surface stock and not smaller.
Ryde tunnel is the obstacle why newer trains have not been able to run

 

[TRAX]

Class 230s do fit the Ryde Tunnels according to Adrian Shooter.

 

[Goldfish62]

Class 230s do fit the Ryde Tunnels according to Adrian Shooter.

And also according to Stagecoach I am led to believe.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Are you proposing using the 707s as 5 car? Would require a lot of infrastructure work with Shipley being the biggest problem particularly if you are including Skipton services.

The chances are that all of the 379s would not see work on Corby services even if the service is doubled, the ITT allows secondhand emus for Corby but 350/379 will be slightly awkward if first class provision is provided especially on 12 car units, do you provide a first class catering service in 3 separate sections of the train? Make first class just a different seat? another option could be to remove first class completely from these services but that may not be acceptable to DfT. I feel that Corby would work better with 6car 20m emus that can be paired up for peak periods.

AGA 170s are going to KAW franchise, the expectation is that a number of WMT 170s will end up at Northern as the most affordable and cost effective option for their 18x2car 170 or equivalent units. There would be a remainder however for use elsewhere.

KAW rolling stock provision is decided so 185s will unlikely be drafted in.

It appears the EMT HSTs will require upgrading to work with mark IV carriages (other options could be available but unlikely due to time restraints) to see the franchise through to new built stock being fully implemented by the end of 2023.

Send the remaining 170's to Cross Country to double up their 2-cars.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The irony is that due to the diesel shortage, the related 165/166s will outlast the electric 465/466s...

Put some diesel engines in them and send them wherever there's a diesel shortage and a route that is partly under the wires. Is it possible for pantographs to be fitted?

 

[Goldfish62]

Put some diesel engines in them and send them wherever there's a diesel shortage and a route that is partly under the wires. Is it possible for pantographs to be fitted?

Scrap the 455s and 456s. The former are getting on for four decades old. There are much newer candidates for conversion to bi-mode / diesel.

 

[59CosG95]

Put some diesel engines in them and send them wherever there's a diesel shortage and a route that is partly under the wires. Is it possible for pantographs to be fitted?

Unfortunately not - new pantograph wells would have to be cut in, and the aluminium bodyshells of the Networker family are a bugger to modify.
It'd probably be easier to fit diesel engines to the handful of 365s currently in store at Crewe, and even then I don't fancy the chances of that happening (as they're a different box of frogs to the 319s).

 

[AlastairFraser]

Scrap the 455s and 456s. The former are getting on for four decades old. There are much newer candidates for conversion to bi-mode / diesel.

Yes,but we currently have a DMU shortage, and these newer candidates might come into to use as regular refurbished electric trains to plug a rolling stock gap, just like the 365's did in Scotland. It would be a shame to scrap them all when there are people still travelling along on trains like Sprinters when they could have 4 car Networkers.