Ideas for a brand for a single English railway system?

[Belperpete]

However I do think any regional division should come with an "intercity" operator as well as the regional ones. In many ways intercity services are completely different things to stopping services, after all.

As has already been pointed out innumerable times, in the UK most intercity services also serve as local stopping services for some or all of their route - they are not completely different things.

 

[HSTEd]

The UK railway has not developed in such a way that we have clear divisions of services.

So little point having pointless divisions between services when the exceptions will make it look absurd.

 

[43096]

The UK railway has not developed in such a way that we have clear divisions of services.

So little point having pointless divisions between services when the exceptions will make it look absurd.

But there is a distinction, and to argue otherwise is absurd. You are effectively lobbing everything from a King's Cross - Edinburgh service to a Stratford - Richmond to the Far North line into the same bucket and saying they are the same. That is obviously not true. I know the railway has been engaged in a race to the bottom in terms of quality over the last 15 years, but there's still clear distinctions in terms of services.

 

[py_megapixel]

But there is a distinction, and to argue otherwise is absurd. You are effectively lobbing everything from a King's Cross - Edinburgh service to a Stratford - Richmond to the Far North line into the same bucket and saying they are the same. That is obviously not true. I know the railway has been engaged in a race to the bottom in terms of quality over the last 15 years, but there's still clear distinctions in terms of services.

There is... however it's becoming confusing. When I suggested that a separate Inter-City operator would be a good idea I had forgotten about things like the GWR Cheltenham service, which runs fast to Swindon and then becomes an all-stations stopper, and the TfW Manchester-Cardiff services which provide important connections between Shrewsbury and Newport for example.

However that's not to say there aren't some true inter-city operations in the UK. Prominent examples are pretty much everything on Avanti and LNER, as well as Norwich in 90, the XC Voyager services and the TPE Scotland services, all of which only call at fairly major stations along their respective routes.

 

[mmh]

But there is a distinction, and to argue otherwise is absurd. You are effectively lobbing everything from a King's Cross - Edinburgh service to a Stratford - Richmond to the Far North line into the same bucket and saying they are the same. That is obviously not true. I know the railway has been engaged in a race to the bottom in terms of quality over the last 15 years, but there's still clear distinctions in terms of services.

In reality people don't care, and the distinguishing factors between operators are far fewer than some like to believe. The class 175 I was on yesterday for 3 minutes is near enough identical to a class 180 running Kings Cross to Sunderland.

 

[mmh]

However that's not to say there aren't some true inter-city operations in the UK. Prominent examples are pretty much everything on Avanti and LNER, as well as Norwich in 90, the XC Voyager services and the TPE Scotland services, all of which only call at fairly major stations along their respective routes.

This isn't true, all of those operators call at "small" places and provide part or all of the local service in various parts of the country.

 

[py_megapixel]

In reality people don't care, and the distinguishing factors between operators are far fewer than some like to believe. The class 175 I was on yesterday for 3 minutes is near enough identical to a class 180 running Kings Cross to Sunderland.

The difference isn't in the rolling stock so much as in the quality of service (in fact passengers often seem oblivious to even the most ridiculous rolling stock changes; I've had a 2 car 150 with a broken toilet on a Cardiff to Chester service before and the passengers didn't seem too annoyed though admittedly I didn't talk to many of them).

On your 3 minute 175 journey you don't expect to get properly settled in, have catering services on hand, have access to onboard entertainment etc. On a 180 between Kings Cross and Sunderland you do.

This isn't true, all of those operators call at "small" places and provide part or all of the local service in various parts of the country.

I'm not talking about specific operators, I'm talking about specific services. For example Norwich in 90 calls only at Ipswich, which is also served by a number of other services. Similarly Avanti services to Liverpool aren't used for short hops; that's what Northern and (to a lesser extent) LNWR are there for

 

[Atomix330]

Personally would argue that the British Railways brand is not as toxic as some people here seem to think - its 2020 not 1985. People have moved on and forgotten. The whole advertising and marketing world has changed beyond recognition. Its a clear and consistent message. People would know what it is. Besides, heritage brands seem to be enjoying a resurgence - GWR, LNER, LNWR... - and compared to some of the 'modern' innovations - GTR, Southern Fail, Northern - have a better public image.

I'd suggest that the end of the franchise system will probably result in an umbrella central organisation - BR - and within that some sort of sectorisation along current franchise lines and hunkering after nostalgia they'd stick with the familiar... Great Western Railway, LNER, Midland Railway, London and North Western, South Eastern Railway, ScotRail (maybe Caledonian).

I can't think of anything more dull than branding something 'Regional Railways'.

Then again, if thinks become a tiered system - local and intercity services - then I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of generic Intercity brand is created for West and East Coast, Cross Country and GWML services. HS1 becoming SE Javelin. And then a return to the more regionalised franchises of the early 2000s - Wessex Trains etc.

 

[mmh]

On your 3 minute 175 journey you don't expect to get properly settled in, have catering services on hand, have access to onboard entertainment etc. On a 180 between Kings Cross and Sunderland you do.

Onboard entertainment sounds very quaint. Some people want wifi these days, on both trains they'll get it. Anything beyond that is yesterday's toy too late and will go the way of onboard audio players and seatback TVs soon enough. Catering I'll grant you, although in normal times my 175 would probably have a trolley on it if I were going any distance.

I'm not talking about specific operators, I'm talking about specific services. For example Norwich in 90 calls only at Ipswich, which is also served by a number of other services. Similarly Avanti services to Liverpool aren't used for short hops; that's what Northern and (to a lesser extent) LNWR are there for

Avanti services to Liverpool serve local journeys between Runcorn and Liverpool, and Stafford and Crewe. Every Avanti route does.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti services to Liverpool serve local journeys between Runcorn and Liverpool, and Stafford and Crewe. Every Avanti route does.

The only local service between Crewe and Warrington is provided by Avanti. But that incidental thing isn't a reason not to brand those services InterCity.

Similarly in BR days the local service (if you'd call it that, more of a disservice) at Barry Links, Golf Street etc was provided by the once a day Penzance to Aberdeen XC HST, which was branded InterCity and even had such things as a traditional restaurant car!

 

[Energy]

Personally would argue that the British Railways brand is not as toxic as some people here seem to think - its 2020 not 1985. People have moved on and forgotten. The whole advertising and marketing world has changed beyond recognition. Its a clear and consistent message. People would know what it is. Besides, heritage brands seem to be enjoying a resurgence - GWR, LNER, LNWR... - and compared to some of the 'modern' innovations - GTR, Southern Fail, Northern - have a better public image.

The bad reputation of the moderns brands you picked isn't to do with them being modern brands, GTR is due to the May 2018 issue (compared to Northern they didn't get hit bad), other than that it doesn't seem to have that bad a reputation (excluding Southern); Southern has a bad reputation due to the DOO strikes; Northern have a bad reputation due to the May 2018 timetable issue, bad maintenance of trains, etc.

Meanwhile some train companies with modern brand have good reputations, look at London Midland or Chiltern, the former had a couple issues but was on the whole good in my opinion. The companies with older style brands have also had issues with their reputations, WMT/WMR/LNWR has had issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Meanwhile some train companies with modern brand have good reputations, look at London Midland or Chiltern, the former had a couple issues but was on the whole good in my opinion. The companies with older style brands have also had issues with their reputations, WMT/WMR/LNWR has had issues.

And Southern has been at all levels - first a wonderful replacement for the awful Connex, then itself hated, then just average.

 

[Killingworth]

We spend far too much time and money on constant rebranding.

When commuting to work I might catch the bus or train. When going on holiday I might tell folks we're going by train, boat or plane.

Trainline nailed it. Intending travellers just want to know the times and prices.

The colour of the carriages and seats is very low down the list of travelling priorities. Yes, we curse GWR, Northern, TPE or the rest because they're there.

80 years ago they had the same issue. They scratched their heads and came up with - British Railways, a National Service.

This the back cover of Bradshaw's October 1942 timetable.

 

[tbwbear]

We spend far too much time and money on constant rebranding

Too true.

Having spent a lot of time in Japan, I love the fact that the Tokaido Shinkansen has had the same basic (more or less) blue and white livery since 1964. In the last 56 years there have been about 5 or 6 different generations of trains, each one a little faster or more comfortable than the previous, all pretty much branded the same. The livery even survived privatisation in 1987.

In contrast, a high speed train operating out of Paddington probably had more than 5 changes of livery over its 43 year life; in that time the basic product stayed pretty much the same - or in some cases worsened and got slower.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Repeated rebranding is very much a UK thing. Deutsche Bahn's two main liveries (ICE/IC red-stripe and Verkehrsrot for regional application) both date back to about 2000 and still look good and modern.

 

[Taunton]

Arguments over such names have long gone on. Back in the 1960s when local rail services were being considered for subsidy, a meeting with the Ministry over the Newcastle-Carlisle line (a stopping dmu service, much the same then as now) got off to a bad start when the civil servant questioned why it was even up for discussion, as BR had said that Inter-City services would be regarded as commercial, and both Newcastle and Carlisle were cities ...

 

[py_megapixel]

Avanti services to Liverpool serve local journeys between Runcorn and Liverpool, and Stafford and Crewe. Every Avanti route does.

I still don't understand why this means they can't be branded as Inter-City.

Using Inter-City services for shorter journeys on the continent is nothing new either. For example, people use the Deutsche Bahn ICE services between Frankfurt Hbf and Frankfurt Airport.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

FWIW I couldn't possibly be more convinced that "InterCity" should make a comeback. It's probably the strongest transport brand in the world, we invented it and others copied, and people have a strong affinity to it. It also doesn't carry the negative connotations BR might in the same way (even though it was sometimes known as "InterSh***y" in the latter days by some).

I didn't think about that one - excellent ! Clearly when loco-hauled Mark 2's were still used on the West Coast Mainline and CrossCountry services just before Voyagers and Pendolinos replaced them, I think service and train reliability was a bit like that I believe.