Idea: Time To Reintroduce 'Reservations Compulsory' ?

[Indigo Soup]

You don’t, though. A marginal extra car journey costs little more than fuel when the car is necessary for other reasons or is a lifestyle choice.

The big saving with public transport is avoiding the need to park the car at the other end, which can be a considerable cost if the journey is to a major city.

An equivalent Railcard would cost (say) £2000 a year, give an 85% discount, allow up to four more passengers to travel at no sdditional cost and guarantee the whole party seats together.

One need only look at the BahnCard 100, which was explicitly designed to get travellers out of company cars and on to Deutsche Bahn, to see what's necessary. In a stroke of genius, it even includes membership in a car-sharing scheme, giving local mobility after long-distance journeys.

Ironically the biggest objection to something along those in this country would probably be that they'd cost less than some annual season tickets in the London & South East area.

 

[Dai Corner]

The big saving with public transport is avoiding the need to park the car at the other end, which can be a considerable cost if the journey is to a major city.

One need only look at the BahnCard 100, which was explicitly designed to get travellers out of company cars and on to Deutsche Bahn, to see what's necessary. In a stroke of genius, it even includes membership in a car-sharing scheme, giving local mobility after long-distance journeys.

Ironically the biggest objection to something along those in this country would probably be that they'd cost less than some annual season tickets in the London & South East area.

Make it transferable amongst company employees (if purchased by a company) or family and friends (if purchased personally) and include taxis each end where there was no public transport and you're close to what a company or family car provides.

As to cost, I suppose taking that of an all-line rover and applying the 40x rule as used for season tickets would be a starting point. That would make it about £20,000 standard class or £30,000 First Class. You could run a car and replace it with a brand new one every year for that.

 

[Indigo Soup]

As to cost, I suppose taking that of an all-line rover and applying the 40x rule as used for season tickets would be a starting point. That would make it about £20,000 standard class or £30,000 First Class. You could run a car and replace it with a brand new one every year for that.

The approach I used was to look at the prices per day of a 7-day and 14-day ALR and extrapolate that out, I came up with £5,245 Standard and £8,130 First Class though that was based on the prices from a year or two ago and I've not recalculated it since so it should have gone up a few percent. This is broadly comparable to the BahnCard 100 (about 40% more, but in the same region at least). That's slightly less than my total costs for driving - but I do about twice as much mileage as the average motorist, and my commute can't be done by public transport.

It wouldn't get everyone, or even most people, out of their cars, but it would probably hold appeal for a lot of people - I suspect mostly city dwellers and as a replacement for a second car. The big problem, of course, being that people using such a pass would want to get on the trains that are already full and standing.

 

[Taunton]

At the risk of going off topic you're not comparing like with like. The costs of motoring are much higher than the cost of fuel. You have to factor in depreciation, tax, servicing, tyres, insurance etc.

That's only an economists view of costing. And to quote the old joke "An Economist is someone for whom the Real World is a Special Case".

Insurance, and depreciation to quite an extent, are time-related, nothing to do with whether you use it or not for a given trip. And unless you live in an inner city and don't make notable journeys, having a car is just one of the aspects of adult life, like having a house.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With HS2 round the corner, it's worth noting that SNCF, Renfe and Trenitalia all have mandatory reservations on high speed trains (even while running on classic lines).
In fact Renfe forces reservations on classic and regional services too.
DB seems to have optional reservations (€3) on all services including ICE, although some ticket types include one.
Thalys, Eurostar and other SNCF-family high-speed services are also compulsory reservation.
Depending on the policy of the West Coast winner, we might find HS2 services (and therefore longer distance WCML routes) become reservation only.
The attitude of the RSSB to standing on very high speed services will be interesting.
Presumably you can stand on HS1 class 395 services, ie up to 140mph/225km/h?

 

[Edgeley]

I'd favour abolishing reservations as unused ones are a great irritant. As a compromise, however, maybe a significant charge (say £25 per passenger) would limit them to people who really wanted them.

 

[xotGD]

I'd favour abolishing reservations as unused ones are a great irritant. As a compromise, however, maybe a significant charge (say £25 per passenger) would limit them to people who really wanted them.

The person who reserved the seat turning up 2 minutes after you've left Kings Cross is an irritant if you have plonked yourself in their seat thinking they are a no-show.

Unused reservations are great for those who don't have a reservation.

 

[trebor79]

The problem with reservations is people not using them and the seats being empty while people stand.

Eh? If I'm standing on a train and there's a reserved seat clearly not being used, I'll sit in it.
Quite happy to get out again if the rightful owner comes and turfs me out. But really you don't see trainfuls of standing passengers whilst seats are empty, reserved or not.

 

[gazthomas]

In Japan first class reservations are compulsory, but that said you can book up to 90 seconds before the train is due to depart. Often it takes longer to walk from the booking office to the platform!

 

[route101]

If you need a reservation you can get one .
What made Virgin move the unreserved coach to coach c.
Was in Greece recently and it seemed everyone got a reservation but this was not marked on the seats.

 

[Sleepy]

GWR really should make bank holiday weekend Friday additional services from Paddington reservation compulsory (with no Reading stop ! ) Then restrict the number of Advance tickets for these services to no more than 40% of capacity so that 60% is available for walk up ticket holders to reserve.

 

[Dai Corner]

A bit of historical perspective. Here's part of the Paddington - West of England timetable for summer Saturdays in 1988. Note the R in a box above every train which indicates reservations were essential.

 

[Sleepy]

Wonder what the quota for Apex tickets (precursor of Advance) on those Saturdays was ?

 

[FQTV]

National Express introduced paid reservations on the East Coast.

The rest is history.

 

[Hadders]

View attachment 49096

A bit of historical perspective. Here's part of the Paddington - West of England timetable for summer Saturdays in 1988. Note the R in a box above every train which indicates reservations were essential.

But not compulsory.

 

[Dai Corner]

But not compulsory.

The wording is as follows

Trains shown [R] at the head of the timetable column are expected to be very popular . Seat reservations will be essential to your enjoyment of your journey to any destination and will be issued free of charge to holders of valid tickets. Customers who have not reserved will almost certainly not find seats on these trains and may be directed to other services

it then goes on to list the routes and times [R] us likely to apply.

 

[urbophile]

You don’t, though. A marginal extra car journey costs little more than fuel when the car is necessary for other reasons or is a lifestyle choice.

What price do you put on the extra stress of driving (and inability to relax or do other things), as well as the considerable extra time on some journeys such as most northern cities to London? (I agree that some other journeys are no quicker by rail)

 

[DH1Commuter]

Might be a daft question, but how would compulsory reservations work for ST holders, who still contribute a substantial portion of railway revenue and, in some areas, travel on the services of multiple operators, none of which run a frequent service but which, cumulatively, manage to do so (example - I turn up at the station at 0800 daily and am never entirely sure if I'm going to get on the late-running 0752 TPE, the 0813 XC or the 0826 LNER service, given reliability issues on the former operators;invariably, whichever train arrives first is packed)?

If compulsory reservations came in, reliable travel to work would be near-impossible by rail in this corner of the country.

 

[Dai Corner]

What price do you put on the extra stress of driving (and inability to relax or do other things), as well as the considerable extra time on some journeys such as most northern cities to London? (I agree that some other journeys are no quicker by rail)

Or what value do you put on the pleasure of driving*, stopping when you like to stretch your legs or see a place of interest, friend or customer, taking as much luggage as you want, not having to change modes or put up with unpleasant fellow passengers etc etc?

* Some of us love driving for its own sake believe it or not.

 

[Hadders]

Might be a daft question, but how would compulsory reservations work for ST holders, who still contribute a substantial portion of railway revenue and, in some areas, travel on the services of multiple operators, none of which run a frequent service but which, cumulatively, manage to do so (example - I turn up at the station at 0800 daily and am never entirely sure if I'm going to get on the late-running 0752 TPE, the 0813 XC or the 0826 LNER service, given reliability issues on the former operators;invariably, whichever train arrives first is packed)?

If compulsory reservations came in, reliable travel to work would be near-impossible by rail in this corner of the country.

No reservation would mean no travel which is why compulsory reservations shouldn't be allowed.

Although the up front cost of a season ticket is high the price per journey in many cases is actually lower than an Off Peak Return.

 

[43096]

Seat Reservations again! Been done to death on the forum already! Anyway my tuppensworth:

Keep seat reservations voluntary not compulsory but:

1. Keep at least one coach "non reservable"
2. Levy a fee for a reservation to discourage no-shows.
3. Using electronic seat reservation displays show any reserved seat as "available" 10 mins after departure from the station it's reserved from unless its also reserved from another station later in the journey.
4. Seat reservations should only be able to be made up to the time the train departs from the origin station.

Pretty much agreed.

I would make advanced purchase tickets as valid booked train only but no seat res. If you want to res - either walk up or advanced - there’s a fee to pay (say £5 or £10) to discourage the seats booked but not used scenario. Rather than “seat reservation” call it “guaranteed seat” or similar.

 

[Hadders]

Pretty much agreed.

I would make advanced purchase tickets as valid booked train only but no seat res. If you want to res - either walk up or advanced - there’s a fee to pay (say £5 or £10) to discourage the seats booked but not used scenario. Rather than “seat reservation” call it “guaranteed seat” or similar.

Absolutely no way a fee of £5 or £10 would pass the media test unscathed.

 

[sheff1]

A bit of historical perspective. Here's part of the Paddington - West of England timetable for summer Saturdays in 1988. Note the R in a box above every train which indicates reservations were essential.

Essential for a comfortable journey, but not compulsory - passengers could still board the trains without a reservation (except in extreme circumstances).

Trains with compulsory reservations were indicated in the timetables by a white 'R' in a black box. All the summer Saturday 'extras' from Birmingham to the West Country in the 1970s were compulsory reservation. Tickets were checked at the top of the steps leading down to the relevant platform and anyone without a reservation was refused access.

 

[satisnek]

I would tend towards the 'abolish' camp, since this kind of thing is for when there are few and long trains, which hasn't been the British method for many years now. Just for example:

• London - Birmingham: 3tph (Virgin)
• London - Manchester: 3tph
• London - Sheffield: 2tph
• Cross Country: 2tph on all four legs out of Birmingham

This is the kind of service frequency found on outer suburban routes (and often the journey time isn't much longer) - and you don't need seat reservations for those, do you?

HOWEVER... I would propose a compromise: advance fares and seat reservations available ONLY for journeys over, say, 100 or 150 miles on one train. Not on connecting services which will be charged at the normal Anytime or Offpeak rate as appropriate, therefore no more sillies like reserved seats between Birmingham New Street and University, etc.

 

[philthetube]

Maybe advance tickets should only be valid if occupying the reserved seat and penalty fares should be charged if occupying any other.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely no way a fee of £5 or £10 would pass the media test unscathed.

A quid or 50p might though. The success of the bag tax demonstrates how having to pay *anything*, even 5p, acts as a significant dissuader.

 

[FQTV]

A quid or 50p might though. The success of the bag tax demonstrates how having to pay *anything*, even 5p, acts as a significant dissuader.

As I said in Post #44, this was tried by National Express on the East Coast. It caused a furore and was rapidly withdrawn.

From The Scotsman at the time:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/rail-...r-plan-to-charge-for-reserved-seats-1-1038008

Surely, it’s possible to accept that all tickets on reservable services include the ‘cost’ of a seat reservation, but for walk-up fares it’s optional whether the passenger takes it up.

Anything that ‘unbundles’ this kind of thing sends the rail service down the slippery slope that airlines have found themselves on, with the opportunity for ‘add-ons’ left right and centre.

Seat reservations and, better still, being able to select one’s own seat are a huge benefit to very many passengers - families; those who wish to work; the elderly or infirm; those who need to be close to a toilet; those who have luggage and would like to be seated close to it for security etc., etc.

These are things that make travel by rail attractive, or even make travel by rail the undeniably best or only option.

 

[Senex]

Maybe advance tickets should only be valid if occupying the reserved seat and penalty fares should be charged if occupying any other.

I'm completely in agreement with anything that tries to end the curse of the unoccupied reserved seat. But there's also a problem with those on open tickets holding a reservation who then choose/need to travel on an earlier/later train, in that there's no way of easily cancelling a reservation one isn't going to use. I was booked some weeks ago on the 1800 from King's Cross, but in the end could just have got the 1700 but chose to go on the 1730. I'd happily have texted some number to record that I didn't need the 1800 reservation if there had been a way of doing so, but the technology still doesn't allow that even on the routes than have electronic systems.