Idea for ticket pricing

[Howardh]

Ticketing.
Tickets based on distance and only seven options;
0 - 5miles = Band A
5 - 10 = B
10 - 20 = C
20 - 40 = D
40 - 100 = E
100 - 200 = F
200 + = G
and within those options;
Peak single,
Peak day return
Off peak single
Off peak day return
and for bands D, E and F advance return booked 7 days in advance
super advance return booked 14 days in advance

Therefore, MANCHESTER - LONDON
would be in band F
peak single = £100
Peak day return = £150
off peak single = £50
off peak day return = £75
+ 7 days (ops £40 opdr £50)
+ 14 days (ops £20 opdr £30)
+ double for first class.
AND each geographical region can have one all-day saver (eg Gtr. Mancs, Lancs)
OK the prices are taken out of thin air, and my example makes peak travel cheaper (I think) and leisure possibly more expensive and people who know profits/losses can adjust accordingly.
But to simplify the system must be a priority??

If you've seen this before, Nederlandse Spoorwagen fares in the 90's and 00's will spring to mind!

 

[Busaholic]

Ticketing.
Tickets based on distance and only seven options;
0 - 5miles = Band A
5 - 10 = B
10 - 20 = C
20 - 40 = D
40 - 100 = E
100 - 200 = F
200 + = G
and within those options;
Peak single,
Peak day return
Off peak single
Off peak day return
and for bands D, E and F advance return booked 7 days in advance
super advance return booked 14 days in advance

Therefore, MANCHESTER - LONDON
would be in band F
peak single = £100
Peak day return = £150
off peak single = £50
off peak day return = £75
+ 7 days (ops £40 opdr £50)
+ 14 days (ops £20 opdr £30)
+ double for first class.
AND each geographical region can have one all-day saver (eg Gtr. Mancs, Lancs)
OK the prices are taken out of thin air, and my example makes peak travel cheaper (I think) and leisure possibly more expensive and people who know profits/losses can adjust accordingly.
But to simplify the system must be a priority??

If you've seen this before, Nederlandse Spoorwagen fares in the 90's and 00's will spring to mind!

As were SNCF fares certainly into the 1970s. Think of all the administrative jobs that could go that arise from the needless fare variations that no single human being nor computer can master (and even if they did, they'd change again within a nanosecond). I'm afraid it would make this forum a less interesting and contensious place but let's not forget the old Chinese curse. Oh, and the unnecessary criminalisation of people who have not paid the 'correct' fare could be confined to those who really do have a case to answer and put the moneyspinning activities of some companies who are no better than the private carclampers of old out of action.

 

[yorkie]

I don't understand how you've worked that out, but can you say what the fares would be for:

• York-Sheffield;
• Cattal-Dronfield;
• Sherburn-Whitby;
• Leicester-Peterborough;
• Nottingham-Peterborough;
• Falkirk Stns-London Terminals

Or, how I can calculate those fares (if they are mileage based, what mileage figures do I take? the shortest permitted route, the longest permitted route, the 'as the crow flies' route, or something else)?


If any of your fares represent an increase, I will lodge an objection

 

[ainsworth74]

And on behalf of the TOCs I shall lodge an objection if any of them represent a decrease

 

[Greenback]

As I've said elsewhere, there will always be winners and losers in any attempt to simplify the fares structure, and you can bet those who end up worse off will be very vocal about it!

I look forward to seeing the answer to Yorkie's questions!

 

[FenMan]

An excellent example of how mileage-based fares can be subverted by TOC competition:-

Offpeak day returns to Basingstoke from various stations on the North Downs Line:-

SWT price the Any Permitted and Via Farnborough North fares.
FGW price the Via Reading fare.

Blackwater
£8.70 - Via Farnborough North
£10.20 - Via Reading

Crowthorne (nearer to Reading)
£10.00 - Via Farnborough North
£9.70 - Via Reading

So far so good, but ...

Wokingham (nearer still to Reading)
£10.80 - Any Permitted

The Wokingham fare has been priced by SWT on the basis that travellers will go via Farnborough North, which is a nonsense as services via Reading are faster and more frequent, however they will be allocated a share of the £10.80 so they'll be happy with that. Meanwhile there is little incentive for FGW to introduce a more competitive Via Reading fare as they would still have to share revenue with SWT and XC.

SWT are locked out of a share of the Blackwater and Crowthorne Via Reading fares as both stations only have FGW services to Reading, so it makes sense for FGW to price these tickets competitively.

If FGW were to ramp up the Blackwater and Crowthorne Via Reading fares to make them consistent with SWT's Wokingham Any Permitted fare then they would be handing the business to SWT, so it's unlikely they would do this.

Clearly Wokingham residents may wish to take advantage of the Crowthorne fare if travelling to Basingstoke via Reading!

 

[PeterC]

As a rule of thumb:

Simplification increases anomalies
Fair is complex and difficult to understand

 

[Simon11]

Should a journey which is 10 miles cost the same if from a station finishing in Central London or from a station in Wales to Aberystwyth?

 

[Greenback]

Should a journey which is 10 miles cost the same if from a station finishing in Central London or from a station in Wales to Aberystwyth?

Another good question! But surely, if the pricing is purely distance based, the answer has to be yes

 

[Emyr]

I predict a big drop in journeys taken of 5.1 miles, since that extra 0.1 mile segment takes the previous 5 into a higher price bracket.

Either that or overriding ticket fraud on a massive scale.

 

[Class377]

Should a journey which is 10 miles cost the same if from a station finishing in Central London or from a station in Wales to Aberystwyth?

Or, for instance, a journey which is 10 miles non-stop and running every 5 minutes (hypothetically) costing the same as Ty Glas to Birchgrove?

 

[ainsworth74]

Another good question! But surely, if the pricing is purely distance based, the answer has to be yes

Perhaps add a 'London Premium' to any mileage which is inside of the Zones? So if you base cost of £0.10 per mile then you add £0.05 per London mile. Simples

 

[Greenback]

Yes, it's getting simpler by the minute

 

[najaB]

Perhaps add a 'London Premium' to any mileage which is inside of the Zones? So if you base cost of £0.10 per mile then you add £0.05 per London mile. Simples

What about other congested cities - given the difference in prices, would the Manchester premium be £0.03 per mile?

 

[Simon11]

Ticketing.
+ double for first class.

Hmm should it always be twice the price for first class? Should London Midlands First Class Passengers pay double as well as passengers on Virgin?

I remember coming up with this idea, however the more you look into it, the worse it gets.

 

[Howardh]

It would be done on railway miles via shortest route - even if the actual route was longer. There would be winners and losers, as there always is in real life.

As for the 5.1 question, I know many stations where if you stopped at the one before you would pay £££'s less.

By the way, not quite sure why this is a thread, I didn't intend it to be - it was part of the what could happen if BR were re-nationalised thread, and a simpler ticketing format could be one benefit.

 

[Emyr]

As for the 5.1 question, I know many stations where if you stopped at the one before you would pay £££'s less.

Just because the fares are silly now, doesn't mean the fares should be silly under a "simple" system.

 

[alex17595]

Yes, it's getting simpler by the minute

A £1 flat fare for all? I wouldn't say no!

 

[yorkie]

It would be done on railway miles via shortest route - even if the actual route was longer. There would be winners and losers, as there always is in real life.

So anyone who wishes to travel from Peterborough to Leicester should buy a Peterborough to Nottingham under your system, as the railway mileage to Leicester is longer than the railway mileage to Nottingham, and yet Leicester is - last time I checked - on a permitted route to Nottingham.

Would you reduce the Nottingham fare (£25.60) or increase the Leicester fare (SVR £21)

As for the 5.1 question, I know many stations where if you stopped at the one before you would pay £££'s less.

Indeed, but can you give some of the example fares, or give me instructions on how to calculate them please?

By the way, not quite sure why this is a thread, I didn't intend it to be - it was part of the what could happen if BR were re-nationalised thread, and a simpler ticketing format could be one benefit.

It's difficult to have multiple discussions under one thread, and things get very messy. A new ticketing system is a very specific subject and is definitely best split away from that thread!

 

[Howardh]

So anyone who wishes to travel from Peterborough to Leicester should buy a Peterborough to Nottingham under your system, as the railway mileage to Leicester is longer than the railway mileage to Nottingham, and yet Leicester is - last time I checked - on a permitted route to Nottingham.

Would you reduce the Nottingham fare (£25.60) or increase the Leicester fare (SVR £21)

Indeed, but can you give some of the example fares, or give me instructions on how to calculate them please?

It's difficult to have multiple discussions under one thread, and things get very messy. A new ticketing system is a very specific subject and is definitely best split away from that thread!

Normally the difference between Preston and all points north and Wigan and all points north is staggering. What's the mileage between Preston and Wigan?

As for the 5.1 question, it applies anyway in Gtr. Manchester where if you are at Blackrod, you get whalloped with these new afternoon peak fares, but walking distance away, Adlington, you are back in peak-free territory. That will happen all round the boundary.

 

[yorkie]

But can you provide the proposed fares I asked for?

Or show me a formula SL I can calculate them?

If not I conclude its unviable.

 

[Howardh]

But can you provide the proposed fares I asked for?

Or show me a formula SL I can calculate them?

If not I conclude its unviable.

No, because they change every ten minutes and I'm fed up of doing it this week for Fri 7th Nov......

From Bolton I should be able to travel north (Carlisle or Scotland) via Wigan or Preston. Never, ever got a decent price from Wigan irrespective of time and/or company. But plenty of cheapies available in advance from Preston and worth paying the extra to get there.

If I did one right now, by 5pm the price will probably have changed upwards

Anyway the ticket I've just printed this morning is £10 out £10 ret Preston (same day) - Haymarket. The best from Wigan is £26 and £21 and the times are worse!!

Dunno what the price is right now?

Which is why I keep banging on about simplyfing the whole thing! If there is a formula then it's got me whacked.

 

[button_boxer]

No, because they change every ten minutes

Yorkie isn't asking about current fares, he wants to know if you could explain what fares your proposed system would set for

• York-Sheffield;
• Cattal-Dronfield;
• Sherburn-Whitby;
• Leicester-Peterborough;
• Nottingham-Peterborough;
• Falkirk Stns-London Terminals

 

[Greenback]

And it is a useful test of whether the proposal is viable or not.

Many suggestions are made for simplifying rail pricing. Many of superficially attractive, but all tend to fall down when they are tried out on real life examples in the UK system.

 

[Howardh]

Yorkie isn't asking about current fares, he wants to know if you could explain what fares your proposed system would set for

Oh, right, missed that.
Answer = Not the foggiest.
I'm doing a trip which would be a return in zone D tonight and it's £14.40 (day ret - no special offers) which I reckon is about right. (A rounded up/down figure might be better).

Might have a go over the weekend but rather busy right now - just getting prepared to travel with Northern Sodding Rail, not sure whether I need a ticket, mortgage or prayer mat most.

 

[dzug2]

I don't understand how you've worked that out, but can you say what the fares would be for:

• York-Sheffield;
• Cattal-Dronfield;
• Sherburn-Whitby;
• Leicester-Peterborough;
• Nottingham-Peterborough;
• Falkirk Stns-London Terminals

Or, how I can calculate those fares (if they are mileage based, what mileage figures do I take? the shortest permitted route, the longest permitted route, the 'as the crow flies' route, or something else)?


If any of your fares represent an increase, I will lodge an objection

The actual route travelled??

 

[ainsworth74]

The actual route travelled??

So when it comes to York - Sheffield, for example, where there are currently three walk up fares with an Anytime Return, Anytime Day Return and an Off-Peak Day Return all of of which are Routed: Any Permitted we'd presumably need at least nine fares for this journey. As there are at least three routes that have services at present (via Leeds, Doncaster and Pontefract).

Much simpler to have potentially nine different fares for three different routes than simply three fares valid on all three different routes. And of course currently I can just buy a ticket and not worry about what route my train is going to use. I simply buy a ticket and board the next train to Sheffield. Under the new system I'd have to nominate which route I wanted to take otherwise I would have to pay an excess on board to enable me to travel on a different route. Or I'd be out of pocket if I bought a more expensive route when I actually travelled on a cheaper one.

And if I'm only going one way I go from only having one ticket to buy but there'd now be three different options just to go one way!

Nice and simple...

 

[globetrotter]

Seems to me ... if the fares had always been mileage based then it would be the norm (as in France) and the only discussions here would centre around discounted advance fares of various kinds.

As it is, each TOC has a contract for several years based on revenue from existing ticketing prices (ORCATS). These TOC contracts around the country expire on different dates. During the remainder of each contract, if the fares had suddenly been changed to some totally different basis imagine the contract negotiations about revenue ...

The only way it could be done is pick some distant future date, arrange that all TOC contracts expire on that date and that thereafter new contracts take into account that all fares are now on a mileage basis plus a discount structure.

Or end all privatisation ... then it's easy. Of course, under new contracts nothing to stop the government setting all fares and simply paying private operators to run the services and simply collect the fares. But then essentially the government would be running a business and it's not quite clear to me that UK governments have any idea about such things ...

 

[ainsworth74]

Seems to me ... if the fares had always been mileage based then it would be the norm (as in France) and the only discussions here would centre around discounted advance fares of various kinds.

As it is, each TOC has a contract for several years based on revenue from existing ticketing prices (ORCATS). These TOC contracts around the country expire on different dates. During the remainder of each contract, if the fares had suddenly been changed to some totally different basis imagine the contract negotiations about revenue ...

The only way it could be done is pick some distant future date, arrange that all TOC contracts expire on that date and that thereafter new contracts take into account that all fares are now on a mileage basis plus a discount structure.

Or end all privatisation ... then it's easy. Of course, under new contracts nothing to stop the government setting all fares and simply paying private operators to run the services and simply collect the fares. But then essentially the government would be running a business and it's not quite clear to me that UK governments have any idea about such things ...

Though it was BR that abandoned mileage based pricing back in the 1960s in favour of market based pricing. Therefore I'm unsure how exactly getting rid of the TOCs solves our fares structures problems. It might, and I stress might as BR's fares system certainly had plenty of anomalies and complexities, make things easier to simplify but it would not solve the problem by itself.

And as it isn't the norm and hasn't been for around fifty years we're going to need to solve all these issues before a move back to mileage based pricing. The only issue nationalisation or management contract operation solves is in TOCs complaining that their revenue would be affected. It doesn't solve the issues for the passengers.

 

[Greenback]

It's not a privatisation issue at all. How many mileage based fares system are there left now in the world now? That's a genuine question, because I don't know!