Idea for the Hope Valley

[Killingworth]

Almost nobody is going to travel into Marple by train to visit its centre - it's a "local place for local people" - so what matters more is its catchment for people going from residential areas to Manchester city centre. And Rose Hill is much nearer the middle of the residential area (and not most of the way down a massive hill!)

To be fair, Marple is a nice spot for incomers to visit when walking the canals.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

25kv/750V tram trains (2tph) would suffice from Picc to Rose Hill, use the existing 25kv as far as Hyde Junction with a very short extension to Hyde North station, change to 750V there and proceed to Rose Hill.
Provision for an extension to Middlewood at least to connect with the Buxton line on the old Macc line alignment (esp. if Northern orders those bi modes and saves enough time on the wires Manchester to Hazel Grove, you could stop every Buxton train there for interchange, which would provide a decent Marple/Hyde to Stockport).

This rather defeats the point of tram-trains, doesn't it? Surely the point of a tram-train conversion would be to remove the service from the congested railway lines into Piccadilly and on to Metrolink into the city centre?

Tram-trains seem to be suggested as a sort of (to use a RailForums cliché) solution in search of a problem much of the time.

 

[daodao]

Rose Hill isn't more central, both of them are relatively peripheral to Marple town centre proper, but it definitely deserves an enhanced service as it's the railhead for the big Stockport estate of Offerton/Bosden Farm.

25kv/750V tram trains (2tph) would suffice from Picc to Rose Hill, use the existing 25kv as far as Hyde Junction with a very short extension to Hyde North station, change to 750V there and proceed to Rose Hill.
Provision for an extension to Middlewood at least to connect with the Buxton line on the old Macc line alignment (esp. if Northern orders those bi modes and saves enough time on the wires Manchester to Hazel Grove, you could stop every Buxton train there for interchange, which would provide a decent Marple/Hyde to Stockport).

Then also electrify with 750V from Woodley station down the spur towards Bredbury, build a bi-di chord facing towards Picc, continue with the 750V back to Ashburys. Run a loop service 2tph Picc - Guide Bridge - Hyde - Woodley - Brinnington - Reddish - Picc, all stops.

Run the existing Hadfields non stop to Guide Bridge, and the New Mills Central/Sheffield stopper express to Brinnington (if paths are available, run the NMC stopper to Sheffield).

Any Metrolink conversion of the ex-GC suburban lines to the south-east of Manchester city centre requires:

• a dedicated line from Ashburys to the existing Metrolink network just east of the Piccadilly Metrolink platforms, which would release capacity in the main heavy rail station at Piccadilly
• a frequency of 5 tph (every 12 minutes) which is the standard for Metrolink services
• a route for heavy rail trains from Chinley via Guide Bridge for both passenger and freight trains, and onwards to Piccadilly

It might be helpful if the New Mills stopper were extended semi-fast to Sheffield stopping at one or two stations - particularly Dore which used to have 3 or 4 trains an hour into Sheffield when the catchment area had a third the current population!

Provision of 2 tph from Dore to Sheffield is desirable to make this service of more use as an urban commuter route. It is unfortunate that the main line platforms at Dore were removed many years ago, as this additional service could have been provided by Nottingham-Sheffield services that call at Dronfield. How difficult/expensive would these be to rebuild? In their absence, some of the fast Manchester-Sheffield services could call at Dore, as happens already in peak hours, but not (oddly) in the evening peak from Sheffield to Dore.

 

[Killingworth]

Provision of 2 tph from Dore to Sheffield is desirable to make this service of more use as an urban commuter route. It is unfortunate that the main line platforms at Dore were removed many years ago, as this additional service could have been provided by Nottingham-Sheffield services that call at Dronfield. How difficult/expensive would these be to rebuild? In their absence, some of the fast Manchester-Sheffield services could call at Dore, as happens already in peak hours, but not (oddly) in the evening peak from Sheffield to Dore.

When there were two pairs of tracks from Dore into Sheffield, slow and fast with crossover at Dore Station Junction, it was simple to have services stopping at Heeley, Millhouses, Beauchief and Dore. Now there's only one pair.

London trains are more frequent today and so are other long distance services. Reopening platforms at all these stations would require reinstating 2 tracks down the Sheaf valley and that would be a major undertaking. The old track bed is mostly still there but bridges have been lifted, tracks slewed, railway infrastructure placed on it - and a small part sold off for a Tesco superstore. Electification will bring the opportunity to add a 3rd track and more loops but will it be done?

However the current bottleneck at Dore on the Hope Valley line means the EMR service crosses the Northern too close to Dore for them both to be reliably pathed to stop - although if they were both running on time it would. With the second platform that opportunity is much easier.

EMR may not see it that way. They are being exhorted to reduce the journey time between Sheffield and Manchester. Adding a stop adds another 3 minutes.

However such a regular stop would offer more through opportunities from Dore and siphon off users from Sheffield. Would it bring new custom to the railway? Would it reduce Northern's stopper loadings?

Given that a bus takes about 30 minutes into Sheffield from Dore station, and a car not much less, a 7 minute reliable train trip roughly every 30 minutes instead of hourly surely must be a winner?

Stopping the TPE service is also good, but it leaves Sheffield 3 minutes before the stopper for Manchester and Dore about 5 minutes after the stopper from Manchester to Sheffield. It doesn't help provide a half hourly interval local service.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This rather defeats the point of tram-trains, doesn't it? Surely the point of a tram-train conversion would be to remove the service from the congested railway lines into Piccadilly and on to Metrolink into the city centre?

Tram-trains seem to be suggested as a sort of (to use a RailForums cliché) solution in search of a problem much of the time.

It's more of a scheme to make the most of existing railway infrastructure in this case, because there is no prospect of any further 25kv mainline electrification scheme on this section of the East Manchester suburban lines, at least within the next 10 years.
Tram trains and 750V OHLE is a significantly cheaper way to provide this electrification.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2023 ==

Any Metrolink conversion of the ex-GC suburban lines to the south-east of Manchester city centre requires:

• a dedicated line from Ashburys to the existing Metrolink network just east of the Piccadilly Metrolink platforms, which would release capacity in the main heavy rail station at Piccadilly
• a frequency of 5 tph (every 12 minutes) which is the standard for Metrolink services
• a route for heavy rail trains from Chinley via Guide Bridge for both passenger and freight trains, and onwards to Piccadilly

I don't think it is wise to think of the tram-train proposals as your typical Metrolink line - the areas they are proposed to pass through are usually of a lower population density, compared to Metrolink.

On street from Ashburys to Picc would be slow and expensive - when you can make use of the existing electrified line from Picc to Ashburys, it makes no sense.
Especially given the need to increase service to Ardwick station, where significant residential and commercial development has/is happening currently (e.g. Universal Square and the flats around Ardwick Green), while the only realistic on street route via Gorton Road and Ashton Old Rd is still mostly light industrial.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Especially given the need to increase service to Ardwick station, where significant residential and commercial development has/is happening currently (e.g. Universal Square and the flats around Ardwick Green), while the only realistic on street route via Gorton Road and Ashton Old Rd is still mostly light industrial.

The problem with increasing service to Ardwick station is that it's on a 2 track section with (once TPE's misdeeds are sorted) quite a frequent fast service. So pathing 10 trams an hour stopping there is going to be rather difficult. Hence the street running idea.

The linespeeds on the viaduct as far as Ashburys are fairly slow, so street running would probably give you pretty comparable travel times, and with it all being up for development and currently just industrial decay, a reserved right of way (on the level a la Blackpool) wouldn't be very hard to do provided you get in before the city centre expands properly that way. With that approach you could have a replacement station on that reserved way for Ardwick and Ashburys (and maybe a couple more), closing those two, then continue onto a dedicated formation (the formation is mostly still there as it was 4 tracked in Woodhead days) with new fast lines to the north and the existing lines converted to Metrolink. The new fast lines would turn left at Guide Bridge for Stalybridge, while the existing lines would become tram-only towards Hadfield and Rose Hill.

That only leaves a section of about 2 miles where you'd need to run both heavy rail and Metrolink together, which could potentially be achieved by a Navigation Road style setup because you'd only need to be pathing 5 trams per hour (Navigation Road is shorter but paths 10).

In that case Brinnington and Bredbury would be served by the New Mills/Sheffield trains (but they'd still get a speed-up by losing the Ashburys call). Having Metrolink go that way as well would require full tram-train operation and would result in Rose Hill getting 10tph which would be grossly excessive for the likely demand.

Alternatively if you keep Hadfield as heavy rail, send the heavy rail trains via Guide Bridge and Metrolink Brinnington/Bredbury instead, which would be a lot cheaper, with just 5tph to Rose Hill. The overall benefit there may be greater as the demand at Brinnington/Bredbury is higher.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's more of a scheme to make the most of existing railway infrastructure in this case, because there is no prospect of any further 25kv mainline electrification scheme on this section of the East Manchester suburban lines, at least within the next 10 years.
Tram trains and 750V OHLE is a significantly cheaper way to provide this electrification.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2023 ==


I don't think it is wise to think of the tram-train proposals as your typical Metrolink line - the areas they are proposed to pass through are usually of a lower population density, compared to Metrolink.

On street from Ashburys to Picc would be slow and expensive - when you can make use of the existing electrified line from Picc to Ashburys, it makes no sense.
Especially given the need to increase service to Ardwick station, where significant residential and commercial development has/is happening currently (e.g. Universal Square and the flats around Ardwick Green), while the only realistic on street route via Gorton Road and Ashton Old Rd is still mostly light industrial.

That's the thing though- if you're doing it simply because "750v DC is easier and/or cheaper" that has an element of cutting off your nose to spite your face. 25kv AC is the standard for heavy rail, and can be done cheaper on low-speed lines (the "tramway style" catenary at Paisley Canal for example). Adding the additional complexity of dual voltage running for the sake of a one mile branch seems a bit daft to be honest, especially when that's exactly the sort of application that an EMU with batteries would be ideal for.

Tram-trains without running onto a tramway is never going to go down well with passengers either. When the original Sheffield proposal was intended to run all the way to Huddersfield this would have massively downgraded the service on the northern end of that route (which at the time was served almost entirely by Pacers). At least that would have run on the tramway at the Sheffield end, unlike your suggestion here. Tram-style vehicles into the main shed at Piccadilly is insanity.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Alternatively if you keep Hadfield as heavy rail, send the heavy rail trains via Guide Bridge and Metrolink Brinnington/Bredbury instead, which would be a lot cheaper, with just 5tph to Rose Hill. The overall benefit there may be greater as the demand at Brinnington/Bredbury is higher.

This would make sense, send the Sheffield/NMC stoppers through Hyde and make them first stop Romiley. That would provide a convenient interchange and make the stoppers significantly faster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This would make sense, send the Sheffield/NMC stoppers through Hyde and make them first stop Romiley. That would provide a convenient interchange and make the stoppers significantly faster.

You couldn't do that because nothing would then serve Hyde North, Hyde Central or Woodley.

First stop Guide Bridge might make sense, though, with the Hadfield EMUs doing the local stations which are presently done by the Rose Hills. If 323s couldn't manage that, use 331s instead as they're a bit quicker.

 

[AlastairFraser]

You couldn't do that because nothing would then serve Hyde North, Hyde Central or Woodley.

First stop Guide Bridge might make sense, though, with the Hadfield EMUs doing the local stations which are presently done by the Rose Hills. If 323s couldn't manage that, use 331s instead as they're a bit quicker.

Tbf, you could do Hyde North, Hyde Central and Woodley, as a roughly analogous replacement for Reddish North, Brinny and Bredbury (their current stopping pattern pre-Romiley).

 

[Acfb]

I'm always surprised that this doesn't come up more often, because it does seem to be just about in the realms of the possible (unlike re-opening the whole of the Peak Line and a second station at Buxton). The current (ex L&NW station) 'at' Chapel is indeed very remote.

I fully understand that with the level of freight traffic these days it would probably trigger doubling of curves, extra loops, turn-back siding and so on and cost £££ but it's a lot more sensible than many Speculative ideas.

MEMRAP is having a meeting in Whaley Bridge with the East Midlands Mayoral Candidates on Thursday evening about the Peaks and Dales Line and I noticed this was on the leaflet (along with a station at Peak Dale) as well as all the historic stations between Matlock and Buxton.

I suppose the problem is that it would be a big investment for Chapel en le Frith and it wouldn't necessarily guarantee better passenger numbers as Chapel en le Frith is arguably less of a destination than Whaley Bridge despite being the larger town. Even the existing station is only a 15 minute walk from the High School as well.

Even a resited station would be less convenient than the 199 bus for going to Morrisons and the industrial estates.

 

[DiscoSteve]

Romiley is a long way from Marple and there is the added inconvenience of the deep gorge containing the River Goyt between them bridged by the viaduct and famous aqueduct - it is also the ONLY convergence point of the two lines into Manchester so provides the interchange between the Piccadilly - Hyde - Rose Hill service and the Piccadilly - Bredbury - Marple - New Mills services. It also happens to be my home station (view right now from my office - note the scaffolding around the decomissioned (and leaning) signalbox

 

[AlastairFraser]

Romiley is a long way from Marple and there is the added inconvenience of the deep gorge containing the River Goyt between them bridged by the viaduct and famous aqueduct - it is also the ONLY convergence point of the two lines into Manchester so provides the interchange between the Piccadilly - Hyde - Rose Hill service and the Piccadilly - Bredbury - Marple - New Mills services. It also happens to be my home station (view right now from my office - note the scaffolding around the decomissioned (and leaning) signalbox
View attachment 153647

Sorry, which post was this replying to? It's been a while, so I lost track of the concepts.

 

[DiscoSteve]

Sorry, which post was this replying to? It's been a while, so I lost track of the concepts.

someone was suggesting that Marple Station was close enough to Romiley Station that their respective communities could be served by the other one

 

[AlastairFraser]

someone was suggesting that Marple Station was close enough to Romiley Station that their respective communities could be served by the other one

Yep, that's a bad idea.