Idea for the Hope Valley

[Philip]

Would a removal of the all-stops Hope Valley service, at least during the week, and instead a 3 per hour semi-fast Manchester-Sheffield service be a good idea for improving the service and creating capacity?

The basic outline of the idea is Northern, TPE and EMR sharing the stops between Chinley & Dore to create a skip-stop service along the Hope Valley - each would pick up two of the stations along the line, with Dore possibly getting two trains per hour. The Northern would previously call at Marple & New Mills only, leaving local Northern services to pick up the other stations west of New Mills. Ideally all 3 services would each make four calls between Manchester-Sheffield; this would increase the existing journey times by a few minutes, but the upside would be having 3 fairly quick Manchester-Sheffield services per hour, instead of 2 at present.

A new bus service could connect all the stations between Edale & Grindleford, if there isn't one already there, and perhaps the existing timetable could be used at the weekend, when there is a lot more demand for the stations along the Hope Valley.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Can you explain what you are ‘creating capacity’ for?

Are you aware that it is not feasible to operate full-sized buses to Edale?

 

[Philip]

Can you explain what you are ‘creating capacity’ for?

Are you aware that it is not feasible to operate full-sized buses to Edale?

Manchester-Sheffield doesn't have enough capacity as it is, but this would be helped if the 3rd service along the line wasn't one that stops nearly everywhere and therefore unattractive for end-end passengers to use. Making all 3 services a similar fairly quick journey time would spread the Manchester-Sheffield passenger loadings over 3 rather than mainly 2 trains. It wouldn't be much different to the current situation between Stalybridge-Huddersfield. Also could improve reliability as you wouldn't have the problem of a fast train getting held up behind a late running stopping train.

I'm not aware of that, why can't full sized buses operate to Edale?

 

[The Planner]

Would a removal of the all-stops Hope Valley service, at least during the week, and instead a 3 per hour semi-fast Manchester-Sheffield service be a good idea for improving the service and creating capacity?

The basic outline of the idea is Northern, TPE and EMR sharing the stops between Chinley & Dore to create a skip-stop service along the Hope Valley - each would pick up two of the stations along the line, with Dore possibly getting two trains per hour. The Northern would previously call at Marple & New Mills only, leaving local Northern services to pick up the other stations west of New Mills. Ideally all 3 services would each make four calls between Manchester-Sheffield; this would increase the existing journey times by a few minutes, but the upside would be having 3 fairly quick Manchester-Sheffield services per hour, instead of 2 at present.

A new bus service could connect all the stations between Edale & Grindleford, if there isn't one already there, and perhaps the existing timetable could be used at the weekend, when there is a lot more demand for the stations along the Hope Valley.

Which would knacker the timetable through Manchester and Sheffield. What is the benefit of this?

 

[Philip]

Which would knacker the timetable through Manchester and Sheffield. What is the benefit of this?

The timetable would have to be re-written if it was to happen, but the thread is more a hypothetical question about whether the plan would benefit the Manchester-Sheffield market, to the point that it off-sets a slightly longer journey time and the Dore-Chinley line service going from an hourly all-stops to a skip-stopping pattern.

 

[LittleAH]

Would a removal of the all-stops Hope Valley service, at least during the week, and instead a 3 per hour semi-fast Manchester-Sheffield service be a good idea for improving the service and creating capacity?

The basic outline of the idea is Northern, TPE and EMR sharing the stops between Chinley & Dore to create a skip-stop service along the Hope Valley - each would pick up two of the stations along the line, with Dore possibly getting two trains per hour. The Northern would previously call at Marple & New Mills only, leaving local Northern services to pick up the other stations west of New Mills. Ideally all 3 services would each make four calls between Manchester-Sheffield; this would increase the existing journey times by a few minutes, but the upside would be having 3 fairly quick Manchester-Sheffield services per hour, instead of 2 at present.

A new bus service could connect all the stations between Edale & Grindleford, if there isn't one already there, and perhaps the existing timetable could be used at the weekend, when there is a lot more demand for the stations along the Hope Valley.

Absolute twaddle.

Those intermediate stops see good patronage. The current work ongoing in the hope valley could provide more capacity but there’s none at the Sheffield or Manchester ends. Get that sorted rather than suggesting cutting local links.

 

[The Planner]

The timetable would have to be re-written if it was to happen, but the thread is more a hypothetical question about whether the plan would benefit the Manchester-Sheffield market, to the point that it off-sets a slightly longer journey time and the Dore-Chinley line service going from an hourly all-stops to a skip-stopping pattern.

It doesn't benefit anyone, thread ends.

 

[Philip]

It doesn't benefit anyone, thread ends.

How does the idea not benefit Manchester-Sheffield passengers when it effectively gives them an extra hourly service to use?

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm not aware of that, why can't full sized buses operate to Edale?

Roads are too small in the area. It's not completely inaccessible, but a minibus is probably the best you can hope to run reliably.

The only viable option to sort the Hope Valley Line after the ongoing improvement scheme would be to electrify (perhaps discontinously and use bi modes through the tunnels) to cut down the semi-fast TPE/EMR journey times, and electrify a little more on the goods train routes in the area (e.g. Midland Main Line south to Market Harborough and north to Leeds) to incentivise the operators to switch to bi mode.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester-Sheffield doesn't have enough capacity as it is, but this would be helped if the 3rd service along the line wasn't one that stops nearly everywhere and therefore unattractive for end-end passengers to use.

It's not intended for end-to-end passengers to use. It's intended for accessing the local stations from east Manchester (not just Piccadilly) which is rather popular. Indeed that was why it wasn't closed and Woodhead was.

A lot of people also do linear walks using the line to get back to their origin.

This seems to originate from the issue of TPE being broken and as a result EMR being overcrowded. The solution is to fix TPE and for EMR to run longer trains.

 

[The Planner]

How does the idea not benefit Manchester-Sheffield passengers when it effectively gives them an extra hourly service to use?

You are re-writing massive sections of congested infrastructure for reducing the accessibility of the smaller stations.

 

[dosxuk]

How does the idea not benefit Manchester-Sheffield passengers when it effectively gives them an extra hourly service to use?

It doesn't give them an extra hourly service, it slows down two of the existing (already slow) services, and speeds up the third a bit.

If you want to benefit Manchester-Sheffield passengers, fix the reliability issues and ensure all services are at least 4 cars.

 

[Philip]

A couple of points to add, Dore & Totley and Hazel Grove are both big enough centres on the route to warrant a call from one of the fast services - Dore especially as it currently only has one service, so even if the stopper remains in place as it is, you'd have to slow down the fast services by a few minutes to accommodate the stations I've mentioned here.

I can understand the reasons for needing to keep the Hope Valley stopper as it is east of New Mills, but none of the stations west of Marple (and Strines) need to be served by the Sheffield; they are not big places in the context of Manchester suburbs and they are already served by the New Mills stopper, one train per hour and a good bus link is enough for Belle Vue-Romiley. Any passengers from these stations wanting to travel to the Peak District & Sheffield can change at Marple or New Mills.

 

[The Planner]

A couple of points to add, Dore & Totley and Hazel Grove are both big enough centres on the route to warrant a call from one of the fast services - Dore especially as it currently only has one service, so even if the stopper remains in place as it is, you'd have to slow down the fast services by a few minutes to accommodate the stations I've mentioned here.

I can understand the reasons for needing to keep the Hope Valley stopper as it is east of New Mills, but none of the stations west of Marple (and Strines) need to be served by the Sheffield; they are not big places in the context of Manchester suburbs and they are already served by the New Mills stopper, one train per hour and a good bus link is enough for Belle Vue-Romiley. Any passengers from these stations wanting to travel to the Peak District & Sheffield can change at Marple or New Mills.

What are your thresholds for how many trains a station should get, and based on what?

 

[Bletchleyite]

One train per hour isn't acceptable for urban commuter stations. Two is bare minimum. Four is what you need to really build traffic.

It has been proposed in the past to reroute the Hope Valley stopper via Stockport and make the Marple service a New Mills and a Chinley, both calling all stations and exactly half an hour apart, connecting at the latter into the Hope Valley stopper. This might make some sense, but there's quite well established traffic from the east Manchester local stations to the Peak, at least on weekends.

 

[Bevan Price]

A couple of points to add, Dore & Totley and Hazel Grove are both big enough centres on the route to warrant a call from one of the fast services - Dore especially as it currently only has one service, so even if the stopper remains in place as it is, you'd have to slow down the fast services by a few minutes to accommodate the stations I've mentioned here.

I can understand the reasons for needing to keep the Hope Valley stopper as it is east of New Mills, but none of the stations west of Marple (and Strines) need to be served by the Sheffield; they are not big places in the context of Manchester suburbs and they are already served by the New Mills stopper, one train per hour and a good bus link is enough for Belle Vue-Romiley. Any passengers from these stations wanting to travel to the Peak District & Sheffield can change at Marple or New Mills.

Having to change trains discourages travel by rail.
And you do get passengers from stations east of Marple wanting to travel to Hope Valley stations, especially at weekends, and even midweek if the weather is good.

As others have said, 2 fast trains per hour between Manchester & Sheffield should be adequate - provided they are long enough and can be trusted to actually run....

 

[Killingworth]

Would a removal of the all-stops Hope Valley service, at least during the week, and instead a 3 per hour semi-fast Manchester-Sheffield service be a good idea for improving the service and creating capacity?

The basic outline of the idea is Northern, TPE and EMR sharing the stops between Chinley & Dore to create a skip-stop service along the Hope Valley - each would pick up two of the stations along the line, with Dore possibly getting two trains per hour. The Northern would previously call at Marple & New Mills only, leaving local Northern services to pick up the other stations west of New Mills. Ideally all 3 services would each make four calls between Manchester-Sheffield; this would increase the existing journey times by a few minutes, but the upside would be having 3 fairly quick Manchester-Sheffield services per hour, instead of 2 at present.

A new bus service could connect all the stations between Edale & Grindleford, if there isn't one already there, and perhaps the existing timetable could be used at the weekend, when there is a lot more demand for the stations along the Hope Valley.

No.

There is no major shortage of capacity if TPE run 6 car and EMR run 4 car and all to time. Unfortunately too often they don't. Making the EMR 6 car would be another way to help,

It might be helpful if the New Mills stopper were extended semi-fast to Sheffield stopping at one or two stations - particularly Dore which used to have 3 or 4 trains an hour into Sheffield when the catchment area had a third the current population! The stopper has the advantage of not being delayed west of Manchester or east of Sheffield. Currently it's picking up business that should be carried by TPE if their services were more reliable. Leisure users aren't so bothered about speed, but are by price.

There is no bus along the Edale valley, the road is too narrow and population too small. Perhaps a trip on the 272 from Sheffield to Castleton might help those who think that's a good substitute, it goes nowhere near Dore or Grindleford as well as missing Edale, see; https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/TSY/media/Timetables/271-272-Sheffield-valid-from-03-September-2023-(412kb).pdf?ext=.pdf

Those putting forward ideas like this should experience the services on a regular basis rather than basing proposals on very limited experience of possibly one or two trains. As a frequent user I've had varied experiences on all 3 TOCs due to service disruptions, special events and the weather. Currently Hope Valley stations are seeing a lot of students from both Manchester and Sheffield universities attracted for the scenery, Bronte literary connections and Chatsworth.

 

[Philip]

What are your thresholds for how many trains a station should get, and based on what?

I don't have specific figures to measure by, but in general the size of the area; the demographics and wealth of the area; the frequency of alternative bus services; how close they are to railway station hubs or alternative stations.
Marple and Hazel Grove are both fairly large, sprawling outer suburbs of Greater Manchester and are quite wealthy, so there's likely to be quite a lot of business traffic for Sheffield & beyond, along with leisure traffic for the Peak District. Hazel Grove especially doesn't have a very nearby alternative for rail travel to Sheffield - Stockport is a bit too far for walking distance and neither of them have bus services to Sheffield.

 

[Manutd1999]

t might be helpful if the New Mills stopper were extended semi-fast to Sheffield stopping at one or two stations - particularly Dore which used to have 3 or 4 trains an hour into Sheffield when the catchment area had a third the current population! The stopper has the advantage of not being delayed west of Manchester or east of Sheffield. Currently it's picking up business that should be carried by TPE if their services were more reliable. Leisure users aren't so bothered about speed, but are by price.

I think this would be a good compromise. Keep the 2x fast services aand 1ph stopper as-is but extend the other New Mills service as a semi-fast to Sheffield, perhaps calling at Chinley, Hope, Dore only.

Longer term, some of the stops west of New Mills could also be removed and replaced with additional Piccadilly-New Mills stoppers and/or tram-trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Longer term, some of the stops west of New Mills could also be removed and replaced with additional Piccadilly-New Mills stoppers and/or tram-trains.

Metrolink conversion will potentially change that route quite a lot, depending on exactly what option is chosen - there are a few ways it could be done, e.g. 4-tracking the route via Guide Bridge and taking the trams that way (which could include converting Hadfield as has been proposed before), or dedicating the busier Bredbury route to them. Probably more likely the trams will go to Rose Hill than Marple (Bridge) though, it's more central to Marple and would be a dedicated terminus.

However it shouldn't be forgotten that the demand into the Peak is not solely from Piccadilly, which is the argument against the proposal to send those trains via Stockport instead of Marple. Thus you'd at least want them to stop at Romiley and Marple for both local demand and for connections from the Rose Hill trams.

 

[Manutd1999]

There are a few differents options. My preference would be to take the 10ph Metrolink from Bury/Altrincham which currently terminate at Piccadilly and create a new tram route (street based?) to join the mainline at Ashbury's.

5ph would then run to Glossop and 5ph would run to Rose Hill via Hyde.

Heavy-rail would be able to run 4ph via Bredbury, 2ph calling at Marple and New Mills only on their way to the Hope Valley and 2ph all-stop to New Mills. Finally, there would be 2ph 'fast' via Guide Bridge to Leeds.

Pathing would clearly be the challenge, but with 4-tracking Ashbury - Guide Bridge and 25kV electrification for the trams it might be possible?

 

[Philip]

Metrolink conversion will potentially change that route quite a lot, depending on exactly what option is chosen - there are a few ways it could be done, e.g. 4-tracking the route via Guide Bridge and taking the trams that way (which could include converting Hadfield as has been proposed before), or dedicating the busier Bredbury route to them. Probably more likely the trams will go to Rose Hill than Marple (Bridge) though, it's more central to Marple and would be a dedicated terminus.

However it shouldn't be forgotten that the demand into the Peak is not solely from Piccadilly, which is the argument against the proposal to send those trains via Stockport instead of Marple. Thus you'd at least want them to stop at Romiley and Marple for both local demand and for connections from the Rose Hill trams.

Is a Romiley-Peak District-Sheffield service particularly necessary? It isn't a big place and is close enough to Marple to be just about within walking distance of Marple Station for connections eastwards - Marple also has good car parking facilities.

 

[Killingworth]

However it shouldn't be forgotten that the demand into the Peak is not solely from Piccadilly, which is the argument against the proposal to send those trains via Stockport instead of Marple. Thus you'd at least want them to stop at Romiley and Marple for both local demand and for connections from the Rose Hill trams.

I note regular users between Marple and Dore.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Probably more likely the trams will go to Rose Hill than Marple (Bridge) though, it's more central to Marple and would be a dedicated terminus.

Rose Hill isn't more central, both of them are relatively peripheral to Marple town centre proper, but it definitely deserves an enhanced service as it's the railhead for the big Stockport estate of Offerton/Bosden Farm.

25kv/750V tram trains (2tph) would suffice from Picc to Rose Hill, use the existing 25kv as far as Hyde Junction with a very short extension to Hyde North station, change to 750V there and proceed to Rose Hill.
Provision for an extension to Middlewood at least to connect with the Buxton line on the old Macc line alignment (esp. if Northern orders those bi modes and saves enough time on the wires Manchester to Hazel Grove, you could stop every Buxton train there for interchange, which would provide a decent Marple/Hyde to Stockport).

Then also electrify with 750V from Woodley station down the spur towards Bredbury, build a bi-di chord facing towards Picc, continue with the 750V back to Ashburys. Run a loop service 2tph Picc - Guide Bridge - Hyde - Woodley - Brinnington - Reddish - Picc, all stops.

Run the existing Hadfields non stop to Guide Bridge, and the New Mills Central/Sheffield stopper express to Brinnington (if paths are available, run the NMC stopper to Sheffield).

 

[The Planner]

I don't have specific figures to measure by, but in general the size of the area; the demographics and wealth of the area; the frequency of alternative bus services; how close they are to railway station hubs or alternative stations.
Marple and Hazel Grove are both fairly large, sprawling outer suburbs of Greater Manchester and are quite wealthy, so there's likely to be quite a lot of business traffic for Sheffield & beyond, along with leisure traffic for the Peak District. Hazel Grove especially doesn't have a very nearby alternative for rail travel to Sheffield - Stockport is a bit too far for walking distance and neither of them have bus services to Sheffield.

Why would the business traffic be to Sheffield and not Manchester? There is no basis to that assumption.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rose Hill isn't more central, both of them are relatively peripheral to Marple town centre proper, but it definitely deserves an enhanced service as it's the railhead for the big Stockport estate of Offerton/Bosden Farm.

Almost nobody is going to travel into Marple by train to visit its centre - it's a "local place for local people" - so what matters more is its catchment for people going from residential areas to Manchester city centre. And Rose Hill is much nearer the middle of the residential area (and not most of the way down a massive hill!)

Didn't think of Offerton but that's a good point (though some may go from there to Hazel Grove as the distance is similar).

But yes it's odd that for so many years Rose Hill had an incredibly weak service.

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Why would the business traffic be to Sheffield and not Manchester? There is no basis to that assumption.

So you've got a choice - connectivity to one city, or connectivity to two cities. Which do you prefer?

 

[Bevan Price]

I think this would be a good compromise. Keep the 2x fast services aand 1ph stopper as-is but extend the other New Mills service as a semi-fast to Sheffield, perhaps calling at Chinley, Hope, Dore only.

Longer term, some of the stops west of New Mills could also be removed and replaced with additional Piccadilly-New Mills stoppers and/or tram-trains.

I think it would be more useful to extend New Mills stoppers to a reopened Chapel en le Frith Central. The Chapel station on the Buxton line is a long bleak walk from the town centre.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I'm always surprised that this doesn't come up more often, because it does seem to be just about in the realms of the possible (unlike re-opening the whole of the Peak Line and a second station at Buxton). The current (ex L&NW station) 'at' Chapel is indeed very remote.

I fully understand that with the level of freight traffic these days it would probably trigger doubling of curves, extra loops, turn-back siding and so on and cost £££ but it's a lot more sensible than many Speculative ideas.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

When the eastern Chapel Milton Viaduct was reinstated for stone traffic, BR did consider running the Sheffield stoppers via Chapel en le Frith Central (with a reversal). Apart from passenger convenience it would have got them out of the way of the main line for a period for fast services to pass.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think it would be more useful to extend New Mills stoppers to a reopened Chapel en le Frith Central. The Chapel station on the Buxton line is a long bleak walk from the town centre.

It's heavily used for the quarry trains, so unlikely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2023 ==

Almost nobody is going to travel into Marple by train to visit its centre - it's a "local place for local people" - so what matters more is its catchment for people going from residential areas to Manchester city centre. And Rose Hill is much nearer the middle of the residential area (and not most of the way down a massive hill!)

Didn't think of Offerton but that's a good point (though some may go from there to Hazel Grove as the distance is similar).

But yes it's odd that for so many years Rose Hill had an incredibly weak service.

Oh I meant people who live close to Marple town centre.
Offerton is closeish to Hazel Grove, but Marple Rose Hill is direct to Picc, instead of via Stockport, plus the interchange opportunities via Rose Hill for Tameside/Yorks with an extra change.