Idea for Pendolinos after HS2

[absolutelymilk]

After 2026, there will a few Pendolinos freed up by HS2 - we don't know how many yet, but say 15. Manchester to Scotland services are currently also restricted to 110mph due to lack of tilt, so why not use split the spare 9 coach 390 fleet, increasing some to 11 coaches and using the remaining ones as 7 coach trains for Manchester-Scotland?

In other words, two 9-car 390s -> one 11-car for Virgin and one 7-car for TPE.

 

[Bletchleyite]

After 2026, there will a few Pendolinos freed up by HS2 - we don't know how many yet, but say 15. Manchester to Scotland services are currently also restricted to 110mph due to lack of tilt, so why not use split the spare 9 coach 390 fleet, increasing some to 11 coaches and using the remaining ones as 7 coach trains for Manchester-Scotland?

In other words, two 9-car 390s -> one 11-car for Virgin and one 7-car for TPE.

No need for that. The present plan is that there will be a classic line hourly Euston-MKC-Manchester-Scotland service which I would expect to use Pendolinos.

 

[absolutelymilk]

No need for that. The present plan is that there will be a classic line hourly Euston-MKC-Manchester-Scotland service which I would expect to use Pendolinos.

Would that replace the TPE service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would that replace the TPE service?

I'm not quite sure but I can see that it logically might.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I'm not quite sure but I can see that it logically might.

You could always have one going via Bolton and another going via Wigan!

 

[gordonthemoron]

if they ever manage to electrify Manchester-York, they could do Euston-MKC-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle-Edinburgh

 

[YorkshireBear]

if they ever manage to electrify Manchester-York, they could do Euston-MKC-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle-Edinburgh

Your smiley at the end suggests that is slightly tongue in cheek or funny but actually.

That service would be a useful service if it could be timetabled suitably.

1. Serves the South WCML with a semi fast service.
2. Serves the WCML South to Yorkshire Market (Which i believe exists)
3. Serves the Manchester to NE and Edinburgh Market
4. Serves the Yorkshire to the NE and Edinburgh Market

So while as an end to end journey it is not exactly worthwhile the amount of intermediate direct journey options it gives are actually quite good.

There is a draw back in that really you want Leeds-Manc expresses served by one TOC and where would it sit etc etc.

However i think there is more merit to that service than first appears.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Actually, it would benefit me a lot, as it would DarloRich I expect

 

[neilb62]

Even though I'm trained on them I can't work out if a 'pendo would work electrically as a 7-car aux-converter wise? Anyone?

 

[Edgeley]

Stick wings on them and offer them to Easyjet, Ryanair, Jet2; as a static service between Ryde Pier Head and Ryde Esplanade.....or just send them to the scrap yard.

 

[boxy321]

Stick wings on them and offer them to Easyjet, Ryanair, Jet2; as a static service between Ryde Pier Head and Ryde Esplanade.....or just send them to the scrap yard.

I've said it before: Stourbridge to Stourbridge Jct is a few pendos.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Alternatively, they could run Liverpool to Scotland services

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stick wings on them and offer them to Easyjet, Ryanair, Jet2; as a static service between Ryde Pier Head and Ryde Esplanade.....or just send them to the scrap yard.

They will, to be fair, be well over 20 years old having had a hard life by the time HS2 opens. So that may actually be an option - after all first-generation Eurostars and TGVs are being scrapped now.

 

[LOL The Irony]

They will, to be fair, be well over 20 years old having had a hard life by the time HS2 opens. So that may actually be an option - after all first-generation Eurostars and TGVs are being scrapped now.

But the HST's have been going for over 40 years under the same conditions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the HST's have been going for over 40 years under the same conditions.

HSTs are rather a different kettle of fish, being an old-fashioned, mechanical, heavyweight, steel bodied design. A Land Rover Defender of trains, if you like, and most of those ever built are still on the road. (I know they have ally bodies, I own one).

 

[rebmcr]

You could always have one going via Bolton and another going via Wigan!

Route 1 via Crewe, Wigan.

Route 2 via Stoke, Manchester, Bolton.

No need for Crewe-Manchester on the WCML service, that can be all Northern & HS2.

 

[DenmarkRail]

I honestly hope they remain on the Liverpool route, with only 1 stop between London and Stafford. I'd be very upset if we got any stops, unless they were operating another route like Glasgow etc.

I don't think Stafford should suffer because of HS2.

 

[notlob.divad]

I thought the idea was they stayed on most of the routes they currently run, but where going to stop at many more of the stations that they currently run through fast. Therefore there would be more opportunities for direct journeys like Manchester to Watford Junction without having to change at Milton Keynes. and Liverpool-Northampton without having to change in either Birmingham or Crewe and Milton Keynes.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Route 1 via Crewe, Wigan.

Route 2 via Stoke, Manchester, Bolton.

No need for Crewe-Manchester on the WCML service, that can be all Northern & HS2.

I meant that there could be 2 services an hour from Manchester - Scotland (one each for Edinburgh and Glasgow)

I thought the idea was they stayed on most of the routes they currently run, but where going to stop at many more of the stations that they currently run through fast. Therefore there would be more opportunities for direct journeys like Manchester to Watford Junction without having to change at Milton Keynes. and Liverpool-Northampton without having to change in either Birmingham or Crewe and Milton Keynes.

Yes, but with fewer services on the classic lines. So three services to Birmingham becomes 3 HS2 services and 2 WCML services with more stops, which presumably needs more trains. The 2011 case also has no WCML trains to Liverpool. So overall only 4 (off-peak)/6 (peak) electric services from Euston per hour instead of 8 per hour according to the 2011 report (p. 44). The exact details may change, but there will certainly be Pendolinos going spare in 2026.

http://assets.hs2.org.uk/sites/default/files/inserts/S%26A%2020_PFM%20assumptions%20report.pdf

 

[BML247]

But the HST's have been going for over 40 years under the same conditions.

Vastly different trains both mechanically and electrically

 

[DenmarkRail]

I thought the idea was they stayed on most of the routes they currently run, but where going to stop at many more of the stations that they currently run through fast. Therefore there would be more opportunities for direct journeys like Manchester to Watford Junction without having to change at Milton Keynes. and Liverpool-Northampton without having to change in either Birmingham or Crewe and Milton Keynes.

That will increase the journey time for people like me, who depend on an under 1.5 hours service to London.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I thought they would've kept the same frequency of trains on the WCML as they do now but with HS2 providing extra services. The problem with HS2 is that it connects the major cities directly as far as I'm concerned, while most WCML passenger journeys on Virgin Trains aren't end-to-end, but rather between their stations. It wouldn't be practical in that case to use less of them since only the city goers would use HS2. Not to mention that the whole second phase wouldn't be done until the mid 2030s, by which point the Pendolinos would've outlived themselves.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I thought they would've kept the same frequency of trains on the WCML as they do now but with HS2 providing extra services. The problem with HS2 is that it connects the major cities directly as far as I'm concerned, while most WCML passenger journeys on Virgin Trains aren't end-to-end, but rather between their stations. It wouldn't be practical in that case to use less of them since only the city goers would use HS2. Not to mention that the whole second phase wouldn't be done until the mid 2030s, by which point the Pendolinos would've outlived themselves.

Every document that I have seen suggests that there will be significantly (maybe a third) fewer WCML intercity trains, made up for by the fact that there will be more stops, and also London Midland will be able to provide more services, especially more "regional" services with fewer stops but more than the intercity trains.

Essentially going from 2 classes of service to four (commuter, regional, intercity stoppers and high speed)

 

[The Ham]

Every document that I have seen suggests that there will be significantly (maybe a third) fewer WCML intercity trains, made up for by the fact that there will be more stops, and also London Midland will be able to provide more services, especially more "regional" services with fewer stops but more than the intercity trains.

Essentially going from 2 classes of service to four (commuter, regional, intercity stoppers and high speed)

I would be inclined to agree, the services on the Southern WCML which need the most extra services are the commuter services.

As such any reduction to the current Virgin services on the WCML would likely see some semi fast services but are more likely to see the number of the current stopping services increase.

 

[thenorthern]

I can't see them moving away from the West Coast Main Line given that they are currently the only electric tilting trains and the West Coast Main Line is the only line with tiling train capability.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be inclined to agree, the services on the Southern WCML which need the most extra services are the commuter services.

As such any reduction to the current Virgin services on the WCML would likely see some semi fast services but are more likely to see the number of the current stopping services increase.

What is likely to be an option is moving the "fast commuter" services (those which either only serve one station or no stations south of MKC) onto the fast lines using Pendolinos, allowing the other EMUs (now looking likely to be Aventras rather than Desiros, but hey ) to run a much more intensive stopping service on the slow lines, perhaps something like 200+ metre all-stations services every 10 minutes.

 

[Chris125]

Good chance they'll be scrapped - unless rolling stock is massively more expensive to buy and tilt is essential why would you use such old, heavy, complex trains?

 

[absolutelymilk]

I can't see them moving away from the West Coast Main Line given that they are currently the only electric tilting trains and the West Coast Main Line is the only line with tiling train capability.

Good chance they'll be scrapped - unless rolling stock is massively more expensive to buy and tilt is essential why would you use such old, heavy, complex trains?

That's why I think they could used for Liverpool/Manchester to Scotland services where the tilt can be used.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But the HST's have been going for over 40 years under the same conditions.

The HST power cars are not the animal that started in 1976.
They have been comprehensively rebuilt with new engines and electrical kit.
The re-engined power cars are younger than the Pendolinos.

In some DfT/NR document, it was suggested that spare Pendolinos could be used on TP South services, but that requires a giant leap of imagination.

I don't think the relationship between HS2 classic-compatibles and Pendolinos after 2026 is at all settled.
There's still the dilemma of whether to use tilt or not north of Crewe (when the main HS2 trains will not have it).

 

[The Ham]

The HST power cars are not the animal that started in 1976.
They have been comprehensively rebuilt with new engines and electrical kit.
The re-engined power cars are younger than the Pendolinos.

In some DfT/NR document, it was suggested that spare Pendolinos could be used on TP South services, but that requires a giant leap of imagination.

I don't think the relationship between HS2 classic-compatibles and Pendolinos after 2026 is at all settled.
There's still the dilemma of whether to use tilt or not north of Crewe (when the main HS2 trains will not have it).

Tilt on the Northern WCML could still be useful. For instance assuming that the HS2 services are limited to 110 mph but would have limited stops. Now if the 390's still have tilt they could stop at a few more stops but because of their higher top speed they could keep broadly the same spacing between them and the HS2 services, which would maximise the available paths.