Idea for Overnight Cheap Slow Anglo-Scottish Train

[DavidGrain]

Back to the comment though on a later evening service to Liverpool , it is a challenge I am told , to retime the last Birmingham to Liverpool services from where they sit at the moment.

I think the challenge is caused by the the franchise. Back in BR times a Liverpool based train with a Liverpool crew could have handled it but the need for LNWR (previously LM) to get the train and crew back to Birmingham at night would require dead mileage running ECS. I see that XC run two trains at 5.00am or soon after from Birmingham to Cardiff which I guess is mainly for positioning as I doubt that they have many passengers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Split it and have two sleeper trains, each with seating capacity. Send one via the ECML.

What calling points would you have on the ECML service though? Those stations that have a call on the 2330 to Leeds (almost everywhere as far as Doncaster) would presumably have lower demand as a result, so your Edinburgh (presumably, though arriving too early in Edinburgh would harm the business case for the sleeper service so maybe you'd serve Glasgow via the ECML and Edinburgh via the WCML?) lowlander would be fast to York, then probably Darlington or Durham, Newcastle and maybe Berwick-on-Tweed. Unfortunately Wakefield wouldn't get a call on this either, unless you ran via Leeds once the Leeds-York knitting is up!

The cost of splitting the lowlander would be (oversimplified) 1 extra loco from London + some extra staff (not necessarily double the number, as presumably each portion would be shorter and there's no splitting en-route), so given the heavy subsidy on the Sleepers, can it be justified?

 

[Deafdoggie]

How about a single Voyager operating this service out of Euston at 00:00.

Euston > MK > Coventry > Birmingham Intl > New St > Wolves > Crewe > Stockport > Man Picc > Preston > Lancaster > Carlisle > Glasgow Central.

It has the flexibility to divert around most engineering as it uses a diesel train.
There are many diversion possibilities such as the Northampton Loop, Chase Line etc.

How long would that take? The 23:00 to Man Picc already takes forever, as has to use slows as fasts are closed by then. Via Brum and Man would take forever, be quicker to get first train the next morning!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think the challenge is caused by the the franchise. Back in BR times a Liverpool based train with a Liverpool crew could have handled it but the need for LNWR (previously LM) to get the train and crew back to Birmingham at night would require dead mileage running ECS. I see that XC run two trains at 5.00am or soon after from Birmingham to Cardiff which I guess is mainly for positioning as I doubt that they have many passengers.

I assume that the LNWR trains to Liverpool are covered by their depot at Crewe. Was set up in 2003/4 specifically for this work.

 

[6Gman]

I think the challenge is caused by the the franchise. Back in BR times a Liverpool based train with a Liverpool crew could have handled it but the need for LNWR (previously LM) to get the train and crew back to Birmingham at night would require dead mileage running ECS. I see that XC run two trains at 5.00am or soon after from Birmingham to Cardiff which I guess is mainly for positioning as I doubt that they have many passengers.

Indeed. In a rational world an Allerton 156 could come up to Crewe and form a connection off the 2200 Euston - Manchester.

[We (Central) used to run a late Bhm International - Crewe when there were concerts at the NEC: New St, Wolves, Stafford, Crewe. Sectorisation and ORCATS killed it off. We bore all the costs but got only a fraction of the revenue.]

 

[yorksrob]

What calling points would you have on the ECML service though? Those stations that have a call on the 2330 to Leeds (almost everywhere as far as Doncaster) would presumably have lower demand as a result, so your Edinburgh (presumably, though arriving too early in Edinburgh would harm the business case for the sleeper service so maybe you'd serve Glasgow via the ECML and Edinburgh via the WCML?) lowlander would be fast to York, then probably Darlington or Durham, Newcastle and maybe Berwick-on-Tweed. Unfortunately Wakefield wouldn't get a call on this either, unless you ran via Leeds once the Leeds-York knitting is up!

You could always start it later and enable the sleeping pax to have a snooze in the platform. Then have the passenger accommodation towards the buffers, so seated passengers arriving there could be directed to those carriages away from the sleeping cars.

Going via Leeds and Wakefield would be good with or without knitting.

 

[Bald Rick]

But not everyone travelling on an overnight Scotland service would be travelling to Scotland.

Indeed. But the numbers I quoted are all the passengers who use the Anglo-Scots overnight services, rail and coach, regardless of where they board or alight. It also includes those who use them internally in Scotland.

It doesn’t include those on overnight coaches that only run in England (from London towards the north, that could be realistically served by trains) but that isn’t a big number; perhaps another hundred or two each way per night.

 

[Bald Rick]

Bald Rick

Excellent summary, except that I'm puzzled by your estimate of 5-700 as the market. 70% of that is 350-500 for rail, which is, I would have thought, much greater than the capacity of the two CS trains.

Can I also point out that the coaches don't just cover London to Edinburgh and Glasgow. There are also direct coaches to Aberdeen and Inverness, and from Glasgow to Bristol. I have a semi-retired friend who uses coaches regularly.

The two CS trains between them have approx 440 beds and 144 seats each way per night. Not all the beds can be used (standard passengers going single occupancy), but the seats can be used more than once. Going by ORR data, average passenger numbers per direction per night is 521, and that includes all the internal to Scotland traffic. That is, of course, an estimate, but is the best data available publicly, and good enough for these purposes. To be honest it is a higher load factor than I expected.

I included the overnight coaches to non Central belt calcs, apologies if that wasn’t clear. It doesn’t include coaches that don’t go to London as the thread is about Anglo-Scots traffic, acknowledging that the Bristol to Glasgow coach will pick up /drop off at places north of Birmingham. The numbers will be negligible in the scheme of things though.

 

[Class 170101]

One small correction to Holly's post - for 'Scotland', read 'Liverpool'. Current last train from Euston is 2107 (or 2110, if you don't mind getting to Lime Street 65 minutes later having changed trains by walking across Warrington just for a three minute later departure) which really does not make an evening out in London terribly feasible.

Why not just extend the existing 22:00 Euston to Crewe service to Liverpool Lime Street calling at Lime Street only? If you don't call at Runcorn then there you could run via Runcorn or via Warrington (or even via Wigan NW).

 

[InOban]

The two CS trains between them have approx 440 beds and 144 seats each way per night. Not all the beds can be used (standard passengers going single occupancy), but the seats can be used more than once. Going by ORR data, average passenger numbers per direction per night is 521, and that includes all the internal to Scotland traffic. That is, of course, an estimate, but is the best data available publicly, and good enough for these purposes. To be honest it is a higher load factor than I expected.

I included the overnight coaches to non Central belt calcs, apologies if that wasn’t clear. It doesn’t include coaches that don’t go to London as the thread is about Anglo-Scots traffic, acknowledging that the Bristol to Glasgow coach will pick up /drop off at places north of Birmingham. The numbers will be negligible in the scheme of things though.

Thanks for that. Didn't realise there were that many beds.

 

[London Trains]

How long would that take? The 23:00 to Man Picc already takes forever, as has to use slows as fasts are closed by then. Via Brum and Man would take forever, be quicker to get first train the next morning!

That's the point! Its meant to be a service that gets to Glasgow around 6/7am, making sure overnight accommodation isn't needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's the point! Its meant to be a service that gets to Glasgow around 6/7am, making sure overnight accommodation isn't needed.

What, like the Sleeper?

 

[mildertduck]

I would quite like a Newcastle stop on an overnight train. The CS stops at Carlisle at around 1.45am southbound, but the only way I can connect to it puts me on the 2118 out of Newcastle, giving me a wait in Carlisle station of nearly 3 hours. If there was a train connecting to it leaving Newcastle at midnight, I would certainly make use of it!

 

[Mainliner]

I would quite like a Newcastle stop on an overnight train. The CS stops at Carlisle at around 1.45am southbound, but the only way I can connect to it puts me on the 2118 out of Newcastle, giving me a wait in Carlisle station of nearly 3 hours. If there was a train connecting to it leaving Newcastle at midnight, I would certainly make use of it!

I did consider the via Carlisle option, but what I have done instead on 2 or 3 occasions is go to Edinburgh, leaving Newcastle at a similar time. That enabled me to get in a sleeper bed a couple of hours sooner, and a longer sleep, instead of hanging around in Carlisle for hours. Not done it for a while, and I suspect there would now be less or no cost saving compared to just going NCL-KGX in the evening and staying in an Easyhotel or similar.

 

[Deafdoggie]

That's the point! Its meant to be a service that gets to Glasgow around 6/7am, making sure overnight accommodation isn't needed.

There already is one-it is operated by Caledonian Sleeper! The only difference they leave a little earlier, but don't go via Brum or Man, there isn't time to fit it in!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There already is one-it is operated by Caledonian Sleeper! The only difference they leave a little earlier, but don't go via Brum or Man, there isn't time to fit it in!

Does the sleeper not run slower for comfort reasons? If sleeping in a seat that would be less of an issue.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Does the sleeper not run slower for comfort reasons? If sleeping in a seat that would be less of an issue.

Yes, but at that time of night on the slow lines it can't go much faster anyway. And there would have to have lots of slack in the timetable too to account for line closures.

 

[shredder1]

The current Anglo-Scottish rail offering is either west coast or east coast and includes
- very expensive early morning trains which may offer the chance to get back home at a pinch without a London hotel bill
- trains that are cheaper, set off later but arrive at such a time that after some work or pleasure you can't get back and certainly require expensive overnight stay
- expensive sleeper both ways, but no hotel stay

Megabus - slow, but affordable overnight transport, which may dispense with hotel accomodation if you don't mind sleeping on the coach

Plane - fast, but environmental credentials for short-haul worsening. Some people don't like to fly. Some prefer scenery.

Now could an operator run an overnight train similar to what was the Thames-Clyde or even to the likes of Aberdeen, using slower routes such as MML, Settle-Carlisle and call at places that don't currently get a direct service such as Nottingham, Derby, Luton? This would be timed to leave at say 23.59 so that people could visit shows etc. It would avoid hotel / sleeper costs and be rather more relaxing than the plane. The target market would be young people on a budget and older folks who have plenty of time and don't like changing trains. Stock might be refurbished (perhaps short-formed) HST. Speed would not be a priority though.

Thoughts?

Lots in Europe, sadly the UK has lost most on them know.