Idea for Overnight Cheap Slow Anglo-Scottish Train

[Bletchleyite]

There is definitely a need for a late departure from Euston that lets theatre-goers avoid an overnight stay in London. 23:59 departure would be ideal for theatre-goers.
Perhaps the obvious thing, now that Chat Moss electrification has been completed, is to extend the last Euston-Manchester service to continue on to Scotland.

Wouldn't those passengers just use the Lowlander? I can't see any justification for going beyond Preston with it, though extending it to Wigan and Preston may be justifiable.

 

[JonathanH]

There is definitely a need for a late departure from Euston that lets theatre-goers avoid an overnight stay in London. 23:59 departure would be ideal for theatre-goers.

Seriously?

How many people do you think would attend theatres in London (even the O2 and other live concert venues) (with the inherent cost of getting there, taking time off work, food etc) and are solely put off by the fact they can't travel back from Euston at midnight and get home in the small hours?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

There is definitely a need for a late departure from Euston that lets theatre-goers avoid an overnight stay in London. 23:59 departure would be ideal for theatre-goers.
Perhaps the obvious thing, now that Chat Moss electrification has been completed, is to extend the last Euston-Manchester service to continue on to Scotland. As to drunkenness, simply designate it as a dry train.

Seriously?

How many people do you think would attend theatres in London (even the O2 and other live concert venues) (with the inherent cost of getting there, taking time off work, food etc) and are solely put off by the fact they can't travel back from Euston at midnight and get home in the small hours?

One small correction to Holly's post - for 'Scotland', read 'Liverpool'. Current last train from Euston is 2107 (or 2110, if you don't mind getting to Lime Street 65 minutes later having changed trains by walking across Warrington just for a three minute later departure) which really does not make an evening out in London terribly feasible.

And (accepting that JonathanH was talking about Scots rather than Scousers), yes, I would use a late train back to Liverpool. It makes (for example) going to a Prom at the Royal Albert Hall feasible with an early dart from work in Liverpool beforehand, and a late (maybe 0330?) arrival into Liverpool: it would be possible to be at work the following day although I might not be performing very well. But almost certainly it would be much cheaper than booking a hotel in London and travelling back in the morning.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

One small correction to Holly's post - for 'Scotland', read 'Liverpool'. Current last train from Euston is 2107 (or 2110, if you don't mind getting to Lime Street 65 minutes later having changed trains by walking across Warrington just for a three minute later departure) which really does not make an evening out in London terribly feasible.

And (accepting that JonathanH was talking about Scots rather than Scousers), yes, I would use a late train back to Liverpool. It makes (for example) going to a Prom at the Royal Albert Hall feasible with an early dart from work in Liverpool beforehand, and a late (maybe 0330?) arrival into Liverpool: it would be possible to be at work the following day although I might not be performing very well. But almost certainly it would be much cheaper than booking a hotel in London and travelling back in the morning.

There is obviously a good "from the regions to that there London" for a wide range of social etc reasons , but for many people part of the enjoyment is a London stay. This is not always reasonably priced , but the last few years have seen many new lower cost hotels built near suburban stations , even converted from what was my old office at Watford Junction , where good , very late evening links are available.

Back to the comment though on a later evening service to Liverpool , it is a challenge I am told , to retime the last Birmingham to Liverpool services from where they sit at the moment.

 

[randyrippley]

Switch newspaper distribution back to rail and tag a coach or two on the bag for late night revellers
I'm sure that would work

 

[6Gman]

Isn't a further issue the need to maintain rolling stock at some point in the 24 hours?

 

[yorksrob]

The 2330 to Leeds from Kings Cross is a good comparison to those. I last used it in October and there didn't seem to be much rowdiness on board though it loaded reasonably well, a rough guesstimate would be 60-70% of seats occupied (on the short 2+8 HST set). I imagine if this service ran beyond Leeds to Newcastle or even Edinburgh it would load pretty well all the way.

I was travelling on a Tuesday night though, I imagine Fridays might be a bit more lively. I'd have liked to have slept on board having awoken at 4am then lost an hour under the channel, but a combination of a slight wheelflat on the bogie directly beneath me, and knowing I needed to order a taxi before arrival at Leeds, meant I had to stay awake! Arrival back at Leeds at 0230ish meant that by the time I got home I'd been awake for 24 hours.

This service was the subject of a thread in the allocations and diagrams section regarding the omission of a Wakefield stop, which I'd link to if I wasn't on my mobile.

Yes, that was my thread regarding Wakefield.

 

[Holly]

Wouldn't those passengers just use the Lowlander? I can't see any justification for going beyond Preston with it, though extending it to Wigan and Preston may be justifiable.

If it were allowed to use the lowlander to travel Euston-Crewe or Euston-Wigan as a seated passenger it would be popular.
I suspect the reason it is not allowed is precisely that it would be too popular.

 

[Taunton]

Seriously?

How many people do you think would attend theatres in London (even the O2 and other live concert venues) (with the inherent cost of getting there, taking time off work, food etc) and are solely put off by the fact they can't travel back from Euston at midnight and get home in the small hours?

There was long a significant proportion of West End show audiences who would start to look anxiously at their watches in the latter part of performances, and quite a number would actually leave early, in the times when the last even suburban trains were at 2230-45. This has notably changed now many services are a little later. But the same would apply to those from further afield who don't have late night services. Looking at the coaches up from the country parked for the evening on The Embankment, but which are gone after midnight, from some quite far away places like beyond Birmingham, yes there is a market for this.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If it were allowed to use the lowlander to travel Euston-Crewe or Euston-Wigan as a seated passenger it would be popular.
I suspect the reason it is not allowed is precisely that it would be too popular.

As well as the fact that the lengths of the present Caledonian sleepers are maxed out to the extent that they only just fit into the low / high level numbered platforms at Euston (thus making any train lengthening for more seated accommodation a non starter ....)

 

[greyman42]

Re

There is definitely a need for a late departure from Euston that lets theatre-goers avoid an overnight stay in London. 23:59 departure would be ideal for theatre-goers.
Perhaps the obvious thing, now that Chat Moss electrification has been completed, is to extend the last Euston-Manchester service to continue on to Scotland. As to drunkenness, simply designate it as a dry train.

Re drunkenness, the problem tends to be that the people in question are already drunk when they board the train.

 

[JonathanH]

A market that seems to be catered for by coaches.

Liverpool is an interesting case of somewhere where the last train from London is early. It doesn't even support a direct late coach.

From Victoria:

the 2345 Megabus service serves Manchester and, seemingly with a change there, Liverpool for a 0450 arrival.

the 2330 National Express service serves Oxford, Solihull, Birmingham, Stoke, Chester, Birkenhead and after Liverpool, Preston and Blackpool for an arrival in Liverpool at 0605.

 

[route:oxford]

A market that seems to be catered for by coaches.

Liverpool is an interesting case of somewhere where the last train from London is early. It doesn't even support a direct late coach.

From Victoria:

the 2345 Megabus service serves Manchester and, seemingly with a change there, Liverpool for a 0450 arrival.

the 2330 National Express service serves Oxford, Solihull, Birmingham, Stoke, Chester, Birkenhead and after Liverpool, Preston and Blackpool for an arrival in Liverpool at 0605.

I can't see many people taking the National Express coach from Victoria to Oxford when The Tube runs up to every 12 minutes during the daytime and operates all through the night. They may well board a Liverpool service from Oxford though.

 

[BrendaRobinson]

Another factor is budget hotels and Airbnb - accommodation can be cheaper than it used to be and more flexibly located in the case of Airbnb. You might not build a 50 bed hotel somewhere but a few people offering spare rooms can provide sufficient accommodation for the localised demand.

My son-in-law did some contract work in London afew months ago and you're right; it was stupidly cheaper for him to travel up on a Monday morning, sleep Mon-Thu night in a Travelodge and come back Friday night than commute every day.

 

[yorksrob]

As well as the fact that the lengths of the present Caledonian sleepers are maxed out to the extent that they only just fit into the low / high level numbered platforms at Euston (thus making any train lengthening for more seated accommodation a non starter ....)

Split it and have two sleeper trains, each with seating capacity. Send one via the ECML.

 

[yorksrob]

Another factor is budget hotels and Airbnb - accommodation can be cheaper than it used to be and more flexibly located in the case of Airbnb. You might not build a 50 bed hotel somewhere but a few people offering spare rooms can provide sufficient accommodation for the localised demand.

I must admit, from my experience budget hotels in London rarely seem to be as 'budget' as one would like.

 

[Bald Rick]

So here’s the facts.

Short version:

If you are travelling to lowland Scotland you can go:

Very cheap and uncomfortable for 8-10 hours (coach)
Cheap and uncomfortable for 6-7 hours (overnight train seats)
Cheap and uncomfortable for 3 hours (off peak plane and terminals)
Reasonable and comfortable for 4-5 hours (off peak day train)
Expensive and uncomfortable for 3 hours (peak plane and terminals)
Expensive and comfortable for 4-5 hours (peak day train)
Expensive and comfortable (although option is divided on that) overnight (Sleeper).

Which market segment is this proposal aiming for?


Long version:

The entire Anglo-Scots overnight public transport market has about 500-700 people travelling each way per night. This is all cross border, not just from London. Split is about 70% rail, the rest by coach.

This compares to around 4000-6000 per day on day trains just between London and Scotland (total both ways), and 11000-13000 / day by air to/from London. Daytime coach travel is peanuts by comparison.

Thus in a total public transport market of around 16,000 to 20,000 trips each way per day, the overnight rail market is about 2%, and the overnight coach market 1%.

The overnight seated rail market already exists. It is also reasonably cheap - generally cheaper than the day train, and much cheaper than a sleeper berth. The seats are rarely full. You can buy tickets for tomorrow for £60. It is therefore reasonable to assume that there is not a great untapped market for London-Scotland seated passengers from those who already use the train. People are evidently more than happy to pay more - much more in some cases - to travel in day time or in a bed.

So where could these extra passengers come from?

Air? Very unlikely. Fares are reasonably cheap, usually cheaper than the train. (You can go tomorrow for £40). People fly because it is (usually) cheap and quick, which outweighs the inconvenience and cost of getting to and from an airport. Particularly if your origin and/or destination is not a city centre.

Coach? It’s a small market, a handful of coaches each way per day, roughly split between day and night services. It’s the cheapest way, presumably because being on a coach for 8-10 hours is not a nice thing to do. The day fares are broadly the same as the night fares, so it is reasonable to assume that daytime passengers are travelling because that is the right time for them, not because of fare differentials. Thus the only available market is the night coach passengers.

Even if every single overnight England to Scotland coach passenger transferred to the train, it wouldn’t fill 3 Mark IIIs per direction. And to win them, you would have to at least get close to the coach fares.

Low passenger numbers and low fares does not a viable service make.

 

[jopsuk]

Switch newspaper distribution back to rail and tag a coach or two on the bag for late night revellers
I'm sure that would work

you'd have to first get the newspapers into London; it's a very long time since they were printed anywhere near Fleet Street. Trinity Mirror Printing are at Watford, Birmingham, Oldham, Teeside and Cardonald- the nationals they handle will print at most of these sites- and News Printers (owned by News International) are at Broxbourne, Knowsley and Eurocentral. That's most of the national papers covered, and they both also contract to local printers too. I went to Wapping for a tour of ops before it shut; they had a control centre that showed the status of not just the eight lines in the plant, but the ones in Liverpool and Scotland, and every contracter around the country, in Turkey and in Spain. A few mouse clicks and those sites had the latest edition to print. Clever stuff.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think as others have said nice idea but the combination of it needing to stop frequently, engineering work, train maintenance and staff rotas will stop it happening.

Let’s say we had a 0030 from Edinburgh- London. It would be used for Dunbar, Berwick, Albmouth, Morpeth and Newcastle party animals. Arriving Newcastle around 2.30am. Then you get the clubbers. By the time it gets to York it could take the path of the 0400 to London Kings Cross (or go via Leeds) but then you have commuters and sleepers mixing.
On the west going via Birmingham and Manchester would probably be needed to make it pay.

Maybe in the IEP world a short set may work but i suspect the frequent changing of paths will make it unviable. Only so many track bashers.

 

[yorksrob]

So here’s the facts.

Short version:

If you are travelling to lowland Scotland you can go:

Very cheap and uncomfortable for 8-10 hours (coach)
Cheap and uncomfortable for 6-7 hours (overnight train seats)
Cheap and uncomfortable for 3 hours (off peak plane and terminals)
Reasonable and comfortable for 4-5 hours (off peak day train)
Expensive and uncomfortable for 3 hours (peak plane and terminals)
Expensive and comfortable for 4-5 hours (peak day train)
Expensive and comfortable (although option is divided on that) overnight (Sleeper).

Which market segment is this proposal aiming for?


Long version:

The entire Anglo-Scots overnight public transport market has about 500-700 people travelling each way per night. This is all cross border, not just from London. Split is about 70% rail, the rest by coach.

This compares to around 4000-6000 per day on day trains just between London and Scotland (total both ways), and 11000-13000 / day by air to/from London. Daytime coach travel is peanuts by comparison.

Thus in a total public transport market of around 16,000 to 20,000 trips each way per day, the overnight rail market is about 2%, and the overnight coach market 1%.

The overnight seated rail market already exists. It is also reasonably cheap - generally cheaper than the day train, and much cheaper than a sleeper berth. The seats are rarely full. You can buy tickets for tomorrow for £60. It is therefore reasonable to assume that there is not a great untapped market for London-Scotland seated passengers from those who already use the train. People are evidently more than happy to pay more - much more in some cases - to travel in day time or in a bed.

So where could these extra passengers come from?

Air? Very unlikely. Fares are reasonably cheap, usually cheaper than the train. (You can go tomorrow for £40). People fly because it is (usually) cheap and quick, which outweighs the inconvenience and cost of getting to and from an airport. Particularly if your origin and/or destination is not a city centre.

Coach? It’s a small market, a handful of coaches each way per day, roughly split between day and night services. It’s the cheapest way, presumably because being on a coach for 8-10 hours is not a nice thing to do. The day fares are broadly the same as the night fares, so it is reasonable to assume that daytime passengers are travelling because that is the right time for them, not because of fare differentials. Thus the only available market is the night coach passengers.

Even if every single overnight England to Scotland coach passenger transferred to the train, it wouldn’t fill 3 Mark IIIs per direction. And to win them, you would have to at least get close to the coach fares.

Low passenger numbers and low fares does not a viable service make.

But not everyone travelling on an overnight Scotland service would be travelling to Scotland.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Split it and have two sleeper trains, each with seating capacity. Send one via the ECML.

Which would more than double the cost ! - the present operations are finely tuned to maximise the trunk haul to Scotland , albeit at the expense of maxing out the capacity available...!

 

[InOban]

Bald Rick

Excellent summary, except that I'm puzzled by your estimate of 5-700 as the market. 70% of that is 350-500 for rail, which is, I would have thought, much greater than the capacity of the two CS trains.

Can I also point out that the coaches don't just cover London to Edinburgh and Glasgow. There are also direct coaches to Aberdeen and Inverness, and from Glasgow to Bristol. I have a semi-retired friend who uses coaches regularly.

 

[Altnabreac]

There is obviously a good "from the regions to that there London" for a wide range of social etc reasons , but for many people part of the enjoyment is a London stay. This is not always reasonably priced , but the last few years have seen many new lower cost hotels built near suburban stations , even converted from what was my old office at Watford Junction , where good , very late evening links are available.

Back to the comment though on a later evening service to Liverpool , it is a challenge I am told , to retime the last Birmingham to Liverpool services from where they sit at the moment.

Indeed,

I'm making a weekend trip to London this May with my son and we're getting the Sleeper down from Scotland. That's great and we'll enjoy it for the experience but it costs us £140 for the two of us for travel and accommodation.

The next night we stay at a brand new Premier Inn located 2 mins walk from a Zone 4 underground station for £38 a night (£19 per person).

That's the market you need to compete with so you need to be very competitively priced to compete against an Oyster Tube fare plus £20 a head for a decent hotel.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Interesting. What of the redundant HSTs running something akin to 2+9 and one or two coaches being converted to carry mail or high-value parcels e.g. Amazon?

With the value of that goods market as well

where doe that integrate with the courier hubs ( generally within the M1-M6- A50 triangle although PFW do have a sub-hub in the North west rather than try and re work Coventry ( and it's Legacy CWU perm staff )

 

[tbtc]

I love the juxtaposition on the forum.

There's a thread where people are dismissing the proposed First Group OA service from London - Edinburgh because it won't be as fast as air.

And there's a thread where people are proposing a London - Glasgow/Edinburgh service up the S&C for theatregoers who don't like flying because there's no scenery (which they will presumably be able to appreciate whilst passing Settle at three in the morning), with a carriage or two for our declining newspaper industry.

I think my money would be on First Group's proposal as being the better business case!

Maybe, if there is to be a "late night"/ "overnight" service then you could trial it during the summer holidays, when demand is highest, maybe three southbound and three northbound services a week, but you'd be relying on engineering possessions and I think that intermediate stops would be very difficult to schedule - plus keeping stations open until the wee small hours.

But, really, I wouldn't waste the perfectly good Crayola.

(the overnight London - Glasgow/Edinburgh service will be shaken up once HS2 knocks big chunks off the journey time and can run through the night without the legacy engineering challenge of keeping crumbling Victorian bridges/ embankments/ tunnels maintained)

 

[edwin_m]

(the overnight London - Glasgow/Edinburgh service will be shaken up once HS2 knocks big chunks off the journey time and can run through the night without the legacy engineering challenge of keeping crumbling Victorian bridges/ embankments/ tunnels maintained)

Before that sets any hares running, HS2 is intended to shut down for several hours every night for engineering access, so it seems overnight trains won't be able to use it. The shorter journey times may translate into later evening departures, though in the morning it might mean the first train starts out later to arrive about the same time as now.

 

[6Gman]

There was long a significant proportion of West End show audiences who would start to look anxiously at their watches in the latter part of performances, and quite a number would actually leave early, in the times when the last even suburban trains were at 2230-45. This has notably changed now many services are a little later. But the same would apply to those from further afield who don't have late night services. Looking at the coaches up from the country parked for the evening on The Embankment, but which are gone after midnight, from some quite far away places like beyond Birmingham, yes there is a market for this.

But do these coaches head "home" after the shows, or simply to London area hotels as part of a "London Mini Break"?

I suspect most are the latter.

 

[6Gman]

I love the juxtaposition on the forum.

There's a thread where people are dismissing the proposed First Group OA service from London - Edinburgh because it won't be as fast as air.

And there's a thread where people are proposing a London - Glasgow/Edinburgh service up the S&C for theatregoers who don't like flying because there's no scenery (which they will presumably be able to appreciate whilst passing Settle at three in the morning), with a carriage or two for our declining newspaper industry.

I think my money would be on First Group's proposal as being the better business case!

Maybe, if there is to be a "late night"/ "overnight" service then you could trial it during the summer holidays, when demand is highest, maybe three southbound and three northbound services a week, but you'd be relying on engineering possessions and I think that intermediate stops would be very difficult to schedule - plus keeping stations open until the wee small hours.

But, really, I wouldn't waste the perfectly good Crayola.

This.

 

[Holly]

I love the juxtaposition on the forum. ...
Maybe, if there is to be a "late night"/ "overnight" service then you could trial it during the summer holidays, when demand is highest, maybe three southbound and three northbound services a week, but you'd be relying on engineering possessions and I think that intermediate stops would be very difficult to schedule - plus keeping stations open until the wee small hours. ...

Euston-Crewe nonstop would be the service to try. Perhaps continuing to Newton-le-Willows.
Last departure is 22:00 today. A 23:59 would much better suit many day trippers.
Crewe has halfway decent parking for people who may have driven from quite far into the NorthWest. And thereby are able to drive home (or get a taxi) in the wee hours.
Crewe has multiple routes, both North and South, to make it relatively feasible to use diversions to avoid engineering possessions and still maintain the departure time (arrival time is less important).

 

[London Trains]

How about a single Voyager operating this service out of Euston at 00:00.

Euston > MK > Coventry > Birmingham Intl > New St > Wolves > Crewe > Stockport > Man Picc > Preston > Lancaster > Carlisle > Glasgow Central.

It has the flexibility to divert around most engineering as it uses a diesel train.
There are many diversion possibilities such as the Northampton Loop, Chase Line etc.