IC125s L. Waterloo - Manchester/Edinburgh

[Any Permitted]

I've had a little book ever since I was a kid called "National Railways - A Guide to the Privatised Railways" that was published around 95/96 and I was just reading about the "InterCity Cross Country" routes and it says this:

"InterCity Cross Country provide IC125 services to London Waterloo for Eurostar purposes, though, unlike those of Great Western these trains are hired to European Passenger Services ltd. and are not available for use other than by bone fide Eurostar passengers. There is one train in each direction Mondays - Saturdays between Waterloo and Manchester Piccadilly and between Waterloo and Edinburgh."

Now maybe I've just been a bit dense but that's the first I've heard of these charters to connect with Eurostar. Does anyone have any information on them; did they use the International Terminal at Waterloo? Was check-in at Waterloo or Man/Ed? What route did they use out of London (I'm guessing the same one the GW services used during the Reading blockade over Xmas).

Any other little titbits?

 

[Ibex]

Interesting find, I didn't know this either.

I would have thought that at Manchester or Edinburgh they would just do a barrier block to allow Eurostar ticket holders only onto the train. To solve the issue of passport control / check in, perhaps the HST would have just gone into a domestic platform and then allow passengers enough time to transfer to the International terminal, afterall Waterloo has a very simple layout - perfect station for changing at if you're an international traveller.

No idea on the route but to me the most obvious route would have been down the WCML, and along the West London Line, then out onto the Up Windsor line at Clapham.

 

[CNX]

These services operated for short time in the mid 1990's, but were a commercial disaster. They were not available to ordinary ECML passengers, and loadings were very poor as all southbound stops were 'U' and northbound 'S'. They conveyed passengers to and from Waterloo only and I presume the Manchester services operated on the same principle.

As soon as they were withdrawn the sets were snapped by by a very grateful Western Region, who used them as cover while their own HST fleet was being refurbished.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

They stopped in the main station, not the Eurostar terminal.

A picture I found on Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sinkplunger/2697928171/in/set-72157606359130668/

 

[Greenback]

The services were a failure, which shows, perhaps, that the NoL Eurostar services and regional sleepers would also have failed had they been introduced?

In fact I believe the HST services were introduced as a sop for Scotland and the North following the decision to cancel the through trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There was signage at Crewe to an "International Departure Lounge" until quite recently, intended for NoL services. I don't know if it was ever used for the Waterloo HSTs.

 

[swt_passenger]

It was almost always quicker to get a random train to your normal mainline terminal, and tube it to Waterloo.

The idea that many passengers are put off by cross London journeys doesn't really stand up to what happens in reality.

 

[route:oxford]

I used the link service between Edinburgh and Waterloo back in 1995 (or it could have been 1994).

It was a bit of a faff. We booked the hotel and Eurostar through a travel agent, but the connection ticket had to be bought at Waverley using evidence of the Eurostar Journey. Sounds simple, but the Eurostar ticket was to be collected at Waterloo... Then there was the hassle of wanting to spend two nights in London on the return trip...

I'm sure the service was quite early leaving Edinburgh, there are distant memories of being in Waverley about 7am, which meant getting early connections to Edinburgh.

The service itself... Erm, well my brother and I were the only 2 passengers on the HST as it left Edinburgh. The buffet manager walked through to our coach to take our orders for any refreshments - and invited us to move through to 1st class so he wouldn't have to walk so far to bring us the snacks!

A few passengers boarded at various stops in England, with lots of confused faces of passengers on the platforms as warnings were given that the service was for international passengers only. We were the only ones that were upgraded - so had 1st to ourselves throughout. When we reached Waterloo I counted fewer than 40 passengers disembarking.

The route arond London was a strange one, we seemed to skirt round various places using what looked like freight routes - sometimes at walking pace. I do recall seeing the TVAM building at Camden Lock.

Passenger loadings were similar on the return trip, there were was just the two of us disembarking in Edinburgh on the return.

 

[gingerheid]

I believe they were called one of the best kept secrets in the rail industry!

I never heard of them, even though I was at the time very interested in the e* services that were supposed to be coming to Scotland and picked up all the leaflets for them that appeared in stations.

 

[Any Permitted]

I believe they were called one of the best kept secrets in the rail industry!

I think it would have to contend with Anglia's Crossrail for that title.

 

[Ivo]

I think that the IC E* would win hands down. The Crosslink appeared on the NSE maps of the era as a mysterious out-of-place grey line...

 

[gingerheid]

I saw a timetable for the Anglia Crosslink service, and I lived in Scotland at the time, so people had a fighting chance of getting to know about it!

 

[flymo]

The southbound one used to leave Newcastle around 9am (maybe 0903 or something like that), remember seeing it on the departure board one time. I think it was shown as Waterloo only but may have stopped to pick up along the way. It was certainly an IC125 and didn't look to have too many people on.

Edit, found a timetable from 1998, I'll upload in a moment.....

 

[flymo]

Hmm..actually the timetable I have shows the proposed through services (I think) that were to have operated through the tunnel to northern England & Scotland, not the HST's. They are marked in the timetable as "subject to confirmation"

Ah well I'll upload anyway for reference.

 

[jopsuk]

those are interesting in themselves- what was the planned route from Peterborough to the Tunnel?

 

[Masbroughlad]

Run by XC but not included in their passenger charter figures if I remember correctly!

 

[Johnny Lewis]

WERE they XC? IIRC, they were 2 +8 sets, suggesting ICWC sets.

I only ever remember one person I know using the train from Waterloo to Manchester (she had come by Eurostar from Paris) and I think there were more carriages on the train than there were people!

Of course, an alternative way of reaching Manchester from Waterloo was on the direct Wales & West service, that took a mere 6 hours to complete the journey, running via Bristol and the Welsh Marches. That service lived on a little longer than the HSTs, but was scrapped when Arriva Trains Wales and Wessex Trains were created out of Wales & West. Confusingly, the services were advertised in full in both directions, but I doubt if anyone was ever daft enough to travel the full length of the journey.

 

[Masbroughlad]

May have been WC sets but def operated by XC - I worked for them at the time!

 

[CheekyBandit]

What route did they use out of London (I'm guessing the same one the GW services used during the Reading blockade over Xmas).

Used this service once from Donny (was mostly empty) in 1996 - not sure of its route but I seem to recall the train reversing at Finsbury Park.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It was almost always quicker to get a random train to your normal mainline terminal, and tube it to Waterloo.

I think the idea is it would have been convenient for those with heavy luggage - I had quite a bit and really needed an easy and step free access means of crossing London in my 1996 trip to Paris. IIRC they could have been used by those wanting to use the route via the cross-channel ferry (which was the route I took the following year) but I broke my journey between Dover and London to spend a few hours with my family and my onward connection out of London was by overnight coach.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it would have to contend with Anglia's Crossrail for that title.

And would have found that one useful if Midland Mainline trains stopped at West Hampstead to make an easier connection for Farnborough Main than going to Waterloo.

 

[Any Permitted]

Hmm..actually the timetable I have shows the proposed through services (I think) that were to have operated through the tunnel to northern England & Scotland, not the HST's. They are marked in the timetable as "subject to confirmation"

Ah well I'll upload anyway for reference.

I cut that same timetable out the back of a NRT book we had donated to where I work. It's interesting but I don't think it's the same service; rather the NoL E*s that never existed.

 

[WestCoast]

Very interesting indeed, I have heard of these services but prior to this thread knew very little about them!

 

[Jonny]

those are interesting in themselves- what was the planned route from Peterborough to the Tunnel?

Not sure, but Thameslink would have been an option?

 

[swt_passenger]

Not sure, but Thameslink would have been an option?

There was no striaghtforward connection between the Thameslink route and the ECML. That's why they've built a new one specifically for the current Thameslink upgrade (although the track isn't laid yet).

I think the EC 'NoL services' would have also had to spend an hour or so crawling round the NLL and WLL - which would be another nail in their coffin, like the connecting services to Waterloo discussed earlier.

 

[Failed Unit]

They were doomed from the start.

They would have had demand if everyone could have used them, for example and Edinburgh - Peterborough passenger but as they were restricted then the ECML intermediate flows were lost.

This may be because they didn't want International passengers getting use to these trains if they were ever swapped with the NOL sets, but then on the passport control issues they were hardly going to set up checks on route anyway. It would be impossible at somewhere like Newark anyway so the checks would have needed to get done on train after Peterborough.

I would have used them to bash the track to get to Waterloo, but again even with track bashers they would never have made a profit. If the passport control was not an issue I don't know on both mainlines where they would get a use.

London - Leeds may be possible in around 4 hours so it may get international passengers, but it would be a failure unless domestic passengers could use the service. It is the same story with Birmingham or even Manchester on the WCML.

I don't know if Leeds, Wakefield, Doncaster, Peterborough, Stratford, Paris would work with London bound passengers leaving at Stratford or if reversal at St Pancras would be better. Saying that I can't see the passport control issues getting sorting for many years so such ideas are a little accademic.

 

[Track Basher]

I used these on one ocassion to get some new track. I travelled on the East Coast service joining at York. The train went down the East Coast Mainline virtually to Kings Cross but then went up Kings Cross Goods Incline onto the North London Line.

The train then continued through Camden Road and into Willesden West London Yard where it reversed. It then went back through Kensington Olympia and the curve towards Waterloo.

The train arrived in the main platforms in Waterloo near to the Eurostar platforms.

 

[RobShipway]

When I travelled up from Bournemouth where I was living at the time, I saw it in platform 19 a few times, which as noted is the nearest platform to the International platforms which were previously platforms 20 & 21.

 

[driver9000]

WERE they XC? IIRC, they were 2 +8 sets, suggesting ICWC sets.

The HST sets used by Intercity West coast were Western region sets rather than their own. I'm not sure when they became true WC sets but I imagine they transferred in the run up to privatisation.

*Having just noticed the 1996 date, the HSTs may have already been West Coasts although Western region sets were being used for north Wales services by Intercity, I might have my dates mixed up.

 

[ApAp]

Glad I came across this thread, thought I'd seen such a service at Newcastle one time but as time had gone on and no one else remembering it I thought it was a figment of my imagination.

 

[caliwag]

I certainly recall the Southbound stopping at York...they used the (generally) Northbound platform 5 presumably to obviate punters going to the Cross, diving on deliberately or accidentally. (York, with a 125 power car in the vicinity has useless PA). To that end even in 5, there were usually more staff on the platform alerting people to not board. As I say it was pretty unusual on weekdays to see anything Southbound in 5.

I certainly recall trying to count the number of pax...never reached double figures. Never clocked the Northbound.

I do recall when I worked in the York architects' offices, that we were asked to identify and produce designs for the dedicated lounges, way before 1996...certainly at Newcastle, York and Doncaster (our patch then), but they never got beyond the drawing board!

My energies were then employed on Ashford International.

 

[knight2004]

i remember this and had the priviledge of travelling on it for my 1st ever trip abroad without family- i was on an exchange normally we coached it but lack of students meant we all went on the eurostar whcih was still a new concept then the journey took 5 hours from manchester and called at very few stops and was using a rather old and shabby inter city which had v v few people on still an enjoyable journey tho i was 14 at the time