I never expected to be writing one of these...

[Daimler]

A week or so ago I bought a 16-25 Railcard discounted Zones 1-6 Travelcard from Reading (my eventual destination was Mill Hill Broadway). However, what I didn't realise at the time of buying the car was that my railcard was just over a week out of date - indeed, I only noticed this on the train from St. Pancras to Mill Hill when, predictably, an RPI told me after I showed it to him. :roll:

Now, I'm fully aware I was travelling without a valid railcard at the time, and therefore the RPI was entirely correct in issuing me with a £20 penalty fare - I'm not after sympathy here, as I should've looked at my railcard (though I do feel a slight frustration that the person at the booking office at Reading didn't notice that it was out of date when I showed it to them!). However, I am also the holder of an entirely valid (and indeed it was valid at the time of travel) Network Railcard, which would've given me an identical discount on the fare had I used it.

Is there any chance that I might get a refund on the penalty fare (which was £20 and paid in full on the train - I have to keep reassuring myself that I'm not missing an 'amount outstanding' that I should be sending off by looking at the receipt, which reassuringly tells me my amount owing is 'nil'*) if I send a copy of my valid Network Card, my expired 16-25 Railcard, and my replacement 16-25 railcard to IPFAS? I'm not suggesting that the RPI was 'in the wrong' in issuing me with a PF - he wasn't, and indeed he was (from what I've heard about FCC RPIs) unusually polite and friendly about it. I should have checked my railcard beforehand of course, but I'm absent minded and slightly dim like that.

However, is there any chance that some leniency might be extended to me considering I did hold a valid railcard - albeit not the right one - for the journey at the time?

It's all really rather embarrassing, considering - like many on here, I suspect - friends from home and university come to me for fares advice, when I can't even keep track of my own railcard expiry date!

*That said, it is slightly worrying that there is another rather terse section on the receipt that has the date 21 days after my journey written in by hand, and reads 'IMPORTANT NOTICE: Unless the amount owing is paid in full by....legal proceedings may be brought against you. However, as the amount owing is 'nil', I guess I'm alright. That doesn't stop me from being a touch paranoid, of course...

 

[LexyBoy]

You can have a go, but I expect getting anything out of IPFAS will be easier than getting blood out of the proverbial stone. They are, after all, not interested in any ticketing issues but purely a debt collection agency.

If I were you I would write a polite but disgruntled letter to FGW explaining the situation (enclose a copy of the PF notice and ticket - which will show that it came from the ticket office and not a TVM). If you're lucky you might get some compensation.

I'm not suggesting that the RPI was 'in the wrong' in issuing me with a PF - he wasn't, and indeed he was (from what I've heard about FCC RPIs) unusually polite and friendly about it.

Probably because you were polite about it and didn't immediately go off on one, which I guess is probably a pleasant surprise if you're an RPI

 

[Railjet]

Sorry, Daimler, but clearly you are a scammer.

Rules are rules y'know, and you broke them. I don't believe a word of your story, and I'm sure you were very rude to the RPI and you should never be allowed to travel by train again. Or you should pay a fine of £276.

Yes, I do read the Daily Mail and you should go to prison.

PS: I expect you are 30 years old with a 15 year-old son. Shame on you.

 

[MCR247]

 

[Daimler]

Sorry, Daimler, but clearly you are a scammer.

Rules are rules y'know, and you broke them. I don't believe a word of your story, and I'm sure you were very rude to the RPI and you should never be allowed to travel by train again. Or you should pay a fine of £276.

Yes, I do read the Daily Mail and you should go to prison.

PS: I expect you are 30 years old with a 15 year-old son. Shame on you.

Curses! I deny everything!

You can have a go, but I expect getting anything out of IPFAS will be easier than getting blood out of the proverbial stone. They are, after all, not interested in any ticketing issues but purely a debt collection agency.

If I were you I would write a polite but disgruntled letter to FGW explaining the situation (enclose a copy of the PF notice and ticket - which will show that it came from the ticket office and not a TVM). If you're lucky you might get some compensation.

I hadn't considered doing that...I kind of feel that if I hadn't noticed myself, I can't really blame it on someone else, even though of course really they should notice.

That said, I wonder if in future some kind of electronic checking system when buying the ticket would be possible - so that it becomes almost impossible to buy a ticket with an invalid railcard. I'm sure there are a number of persuasive arguments against this, but I clearly need some kind of reminder...

 

[mumrar]

I only noticed this on the train from St. Pancras to Mill Hill when, predictably, an RPI told me after I showed it to him.

That isn't 'noticing' that is 'being informed' LOL.

I don't think you'll get any joy with refund etc. as it was invalid at purchase and for travel. Yes the person in the booking office didn't check properly, but that doesn't absolve you of your own liability. If a bank clerk made the mistake of crediting £1m instead of £1k to my account, that would not be reaon for me to spend the 'bonus' £999k.

I realise you're not after sympathy, but I'm explaining why I feel contacting them is fruitless.

 

[Daimler]

That isn't 'noticing' that is 'being informed' LOL.

I don't think you'll get any joy with refund etc. as it was invalid at purchase and for travel. Yes the person in the booking office didn't check properly, but that doesn't absolve you of your own liability. If a bank clerk made the mistake of crediting £1m instead of £1k to my account, that would not be reaon for me to spend the 'bonus' £999k.

I realise you're not after sympathy, but I'm explaining why I feel contacting them is fruitless.

Indeed, I suspected that would be the case. No harm in asking, though - a lesson for the future, methinks!

 

[34D]

Did you have the network railcard with you at the time? Did you make any attempt to show it?

Given that this involves First GW and First CC I would be tempted to bypass the normal channel and send a letter to First in Aberdeen.

In my view (former office staff with a TOC, including dealing with PF issues - but going back a bit) you should not have been charged the £20 penalty; instead you should have been charged the difference between what you paid and the price without YNG discount.

 

[penaltyfines]

It's a shame you didn't contest it at the time, and shown them the network railcard.

I don't think there's a court in the land that would rule for the TOC where a valid railcard was presented but the wrong one chosen at the ticket office (if the discounted fare was exactly the same, no restrictions etc).

 

[FGWman]

In my view (former office staff with a TOC, including dealing with PF issues - but going back a bit) you should not have been charged the £20 penalty; instead you should have been charged the difference between what you paid and the price without YNG discount.

You must be going back a bit. In the T & C of YP railcard for many years it says if you dont show a valid railcard then you will be liable for the standard single ticket for the journey being made. (As a minimum)

I mean charging the difference between what you paid and what you would of paid without YNG discount would mean everyone would buy YP tickets and just pay the difference when caught.

 

[Flamingo]

If you showed the NSE railcard at the time, the RPI may have been inclined to forgive the omission. Writing in afterwards implies you did not have the NSE railcard on you at the time.

Still, if you don't ask you don't get. The only people who can answer the question is the revenue staff at First.

Regarding the rst of the post, it has been discussed ad nauseum on here, and the basic point is that the T&C of the railcard is that it be carried and in date. The best computer yet developed is supposed to check the card - the human owning it.

A commercial case would have to be made for the development costs, implementation and equiping every point of sale with the appropriate scanning equipment. I can't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[Daimler]

I'm afraid I didn't have my Network Railcard on me at the time - thinking I wouldn't need it when I set out for the day, I left it behind, taking only the 16-25 Railcard, unfortunately - otherwise I would have shown it to the RPI.

I probably won't bother appealing, I suppose - I'm not likely to get the money back, so I'll just write off the £20 fine (or 'fare', rather!) and move on, seeing it as a lesson for the future - much in the manner of someone who didn't notice the change of speed limit before a camera and gets caught (hopefully) learns to pay more attention to roadsigns next time.

 

[yorkie]

Good luck but can I suggest you also send the letter to FCC directly, in addition to appealing. Also try http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/ (if you do try them please let us know how you get on, as I'd be interested to know, either way!)

 

[Old Timer]

Good luck but can I suggest you also send the letter to FCC directly, in addition to appealing. Also try http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/ (if you do try them please let us know how you get on, as I'd be interested to know, either way!)

Without wishing to be controversial, is there NO circumstances in which people are expected to take personal responsibility ?

The OP is clearly in breach of the conditions of issue of the ticket, and in credit to them, accepts this.

Other people however feel that there is a case for "compensation" and claiming a refund.

Now IF for example the TOC made an error and then wrote to a passenger requesting payment of the difference, I am sure the screaming on here would be heard throughout the Country, so are terms and conditions simply a one way street ? Applicable when it suits the passenger or people on here, but immediately unfair and unenforceable when it does not suit.

It does strike me that a rather perverse morality exists these days....maybe it is just my age ?

 

[mumrar]

Now IF for example the TOC made an error and then wrote to a passenger requesting payment of the difference, I am sure the screaming on here would be heard throughout the Country, so are terms and conditions simply a one way street ? Applicable when it suits the passenger or people on here, but immediately unfair and unenforceable when it does not suit.

It does strike me that a rather perverse morality exists these days....maybe it is just my age ?

OT, its something I have noted and previously raised, although it obviously doesn't apply to all respondants.

People's insistance that if a website such as East Coast says you can go from Scarborough to Edinburgh via Penzance, people will insist on the railways honour it, even bringing along a printout. If it's ticket/railcard T&Cs though, it's all about TOCs ripping people off and trying to profit out of confusion.

Its hardly different to people who complain about speed cameras just generating cash. They may well do, but only when, despite warning signs and bright yellow stickers, you have broken the law whilst passing one.

I think it's a sad indication of how we've become a nation of blame hungry sheep, always demanding guidance and blaming the government, or whoever else convenient, for our own problems. Why people can no longer take responsibilty for their own actions is beyond me.

 

[34D]

You must be going back a bit. In the T & C of YP railcard for many years it says if you dont show a valid railcard then you will be liable for the standard single ticket for the journey being made. (As a minimum)

I mean charging the difference between what you paid and what you would of paid without YNG discount would mean everyone would buy YP tickets and just pay the difference when caught.

I'll defer to your recent knowledge and also specific railcard knowledge. I was working on the premise that _a_ ticket was held.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm afraid I didn't have my Network Railcard on me at the time - thinking I wouldn't need it when I set out for the day, I left it behind, taking only the 16-25 Railcard, unfortunately - otherwise I would have shown it to the RPI.

I probably won't bother appealing, I suppose - I'm not likely to get the money back, so I'll just write off the £20 fine (or 'fare', rather!) and move on, seeing it as a lesson for the future - much in the manner of someone who didn't notice the change of speed limit before a camera and gets caught (hopefully) learns to pay more attention to roadsigns next time.

If you didn't have the NSE railcard with you at the time, then it wouldn't count, and you would have been PF'd, even if it was a NSE ticket you had bought. I thought from your original post that you had both with you, but because the ticket was a YP ticket, the RPI would not accept the NSE railcard.

On this occasion, I'm afraid you are right, you will have to take it on the chin. Better luck next time.

 

[Daimler]

If you didn't have the NSE railcard with you at the time, then it wouldn't count, and you would have been PF'd, even if it was a NSE ticket you had bought. I thought from your original post that you had both with you, but because the ticket was a YP ticket, the RPI would not accept the NSE railcard.

On this occasion, I'm afraid you are right, you will have to take it on the chin. Better luck next time.

Ah well - my only concern was really about being on their records as someone who's received a PF - just in case I make a mistake again (or lose my ticket or something), and they think that I'm a fare-evader. I'd like to think that's extremely unlikely, though - I'll have to be even more careful than before...

Thanks to everyone for the replies, anyway!