I had a valid train ticket with the wrong railcard applied. I was charged a penalty

[tzk457]

I went from London Euston to Coventry on the 25th August 2025, and I paid for the ticket, but with the wrong railcard. I used the 16-17 railcard savers instead of the 16-25 railcard savers.

I have never done this before, and the difference in price in the ticket for using the correct railcard would have been 7 pounds.

My ticket was checked by the inspector on the LNWR train, and he said that I would only have to pay the remaining amount from how much I had already paid, which was 5.50 pounds.

But I checked on the appealservice website, and it is telling me I have to pay 20.90 + 50 pounds for the penalty.

I appealed that I was charged incorrectly because that was not what the inspector told me.

What happens now, as this was a genuine mistake.
What happens if I don't pay the penalty?
Will I be charged 70.90 pounds, or can I just pay the remainder because I did have a valid ticket?

 

[b0b]

I'm sure others will be along to answer, but 70.90 to avoid any threat of prosecution is a deal you should take. You can then follow up to try and get refunded the difference.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I did have a valid ticket?

@tzk457. Welcome to the forum. Could you upload a copy of the Penalty Fare notice issued. Please be sure to cover up your name and address and any ID number showing. Unfortunately, without the accompanying, appropriate, in date, railcard, you likely didn't actually have a valid ticket and so the PF was correctly issued.

 

[tzk457]

@tzk457. Welcome to the forum. Could you upload a copy of the Penalty Fare notice issued. Please be sure to cover up your name and address and any ID number showing. Unfortunately, without the accompanying, appropriate, in date, railcard, you likely didn't actually have a valid ticket and so the PF was correctly issued.

 

[jfollows]

You should take it.
I don’t know where £20.90 comes from, it seems much less than I would expect (£89 anytime single London-Coventry) and £50 is standard for a Penalty Fare if paid promptly.

 

[tzk457]

You should take it.
I don’t know where £20.90 comes from, it seems much less than I would expect (£89 anytime single London-Coventry) and £50 is standard for a Penalty Fare if paid promptly.

£20.90 was the price of the ticket which is the full single fare.

 

[SuspectUsual]

You should take it.
I don’t know where £20.90 comes from, it seems much less than I would expect (£89 anytime single London-Coventry) and £50 is standard for a Penalty Fare if paid promptly.

Super Off Peak Single WMR only

 

[tzk457]

I'm sure others will be along to answer, but 70.90 to avoid any threat of prosecution is a deal you should take. You can then follow up to try and get refunded the difference.

Is there any chance I can wait till I get a response from the appeal service, and they will update how much I have to pay.

 

[jfollows]

Super Off Peak Single WMR only

Thank you. I was looking incorrectly at London Terminals rather than London Euston.

 

[z444z]

Is there any chance I can wait till I get a response from the appeal service, and they will update how much I have to pay.

You didn’t have a valid ticket and won’t be entitled to any refund. The penalty fare appears correctly issued. Just pay it, this is a far lower amount than you might have been charged if they decided to take your details instead of issuing a penalty fare.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Penalty Fare ostensibly issued at 13:48. Where would a West Midlands Train departing London Euston have gotten as far, on 25NOV2025? Lots of intermediate calling points?! Was the OP offered the option of the PF being issued just to the next station?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Just pay it, this is a far lower amount than you might have been charged if they decided to take your details instead of issuing a penalty fare.

Had they taken details for investigation, would they have found more examples of the 50% discount being applied instead of the 33% one? They can look at the history of purchases on Trainline and other booking sites.

 

[tzk457]

Had they taken details for investigation, would they have found more examples of the 50% discount being applied instead of the 33% one? They can look at the history of purchases on Trainline and other booking sites.

They only took my name and house address. They did not take my email address or any details I used to book my train tickets.

 

[Kite159]

Although if it was an e-ticket they could easily get the details if it was scanned, so if the account has a history of 16-17 saver card usage you might end up getting an email from digital fraud.

 

[AlterEgo]

They only took my name and house address. They did not take my email address or any details I used to book my train tickets.

If someone was to look at your online purchases, is this the only time you've claimed a bigger discount, or have there been other instances? Regardless of whether the penalty fare is paid or appealed, the company may come back and threaten more action if they find this isn't the first time.

 

[z444z]

Penalty Fare ostensibly issued at 13:48. Where would a West Midlands Train departing London Euston have gotten as far, on 25NOV2025? Lots of intermediate calling points?! Was the OP offered the option of the PF being issued just to the next station?

That’s a good point. At 13:48 there were three WMT trains between Euston and Coventry:

The 1223, approaching Long Buckby
The 1256, approaching Northampton
The 1323, approaching Leighton Buzzard

So an appeal could be made on the grounds that the penalty fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations because it wasn’t issued to the next stop. OP could you clarify which train you were on and whether you were asked where you’d like the penalty fare to, or if you requested it all the way to Coventry, or if you were simply asked where you were travelling to and nothing further?

 

[Kite159]

So an appeal could be made on the grounds that the penalty fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations because it wasn’t issued to the next stop. OP could you clarify which train you were on and whether you were asked where you’d like the penalty fare to, or if you requested it all the way to Coventry, or if you were simply asked where you were travelling to and nothing further?

Which will likely get thrown out as it will be hard to prove or disprove what was actually said at the time. So someone can easily lie saying 'I wasn't given the option' when they got given multiple options. Unless the member of revenue staff had their body cam filming.

 

[z444z]

Which will likely get thrown out as it will be hard to prove or disprove what was actually said at the time. So someone can easily lie saying 'I wasn't given the option' when they got given multiple options. Unless the member of revenue staff had their body cam filming.

I’d be interested to know where the burden of proof lies here. Presumably as penalty fares are a civil matter it would be decided on the balance of probabilities?

 

[AlterEgo]

I’d be interested to know where the burden of proof lies here. Presumably as penalty fares are a civil matter it would be decided on the balance of probabilities?

At county court stage yes, but in theory during the appeal process the burden of proof is on the train company to disprove the appellant.
If the PF had been issued earlier, how much would it have saved, or woild it rather have made the OP's journey more expensive?

 

[tzk457]

That’s a good point. At 13:48 there were three WMT trains between Euston and Coventry:

The 1223, approaching Long Buckby
The 1256, approaching Northampton
The 1323, approaching Leighton Buzzard

So an appeal could be made on the grounds that the penalty fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations because it wasn’t issued to the next stop. OP could you clarify which train you were on and whether you were asked where you’d like the penalty fare to, or if you requested it all the way to Coventry, or if you were simply asked where you were travelling to and nothing further?

I was on the 1256 approaching Northampton. And I was asked where I departed from and where I was heading. And that is all I was asked. And he handed me a receipt, and he explained to me that I have to appeal. He was not very clear with it but that is all I can remember

 

[reb0118]

I did have a valid ticket?

This is the crux of the matter. You didn't (have a valid ticket).

Often, when incorrect or no railcards are held, penalty fares are not offered, and a report for further investigation - with a view to prosecute - is made instead. Ask yourself this: if that report for investigation were made, what would it find? You do not have to answer that question here, but if there were previous irregularities I would be trying to get this incident settled tout suite before they start digging further.

In the grand scheme of things this could have been a lot worse.

 

[z444z]

If the PF had been issued earlier, how much would it have saved, or woild it rather have made the OP's journey more expensive?

They overcharged by 30p by issuing it to Coventry instead of Northampton, but buying a new ticket Northampton to Coventry would have been £15.

So this did work out in the passenger’s favour, but it still stands that the penalty fare wasn’t issued in accordance with the regulations because the provision to issue it beyond the next stop specifies that the passenger must request it.

The only reason not to appeal would be concern that it would draw attention to previous fare evasion, but as you’ve said yourself recently WMT often look into this when penalty fares are issued regardless of whether or not they’re appealed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2025 ==

They only took my name and house address. They did not take my email address or any details I used to book my train tickets.

If they scanned your ticket then they’ll be able to identify your account. The question was whether you have applied a railcard discount without a valid railcard in the past.

 

[AlterEgo]

WMT do indeed habitually look into the purchasing patterns of people who have merely been issued PFs whether they are paid or not. So the appeal has relatively low jeopardy in that respect, although I do not expect it to be upheld. I am not sure we have ever seen "I should have had to pay more money to complete my journey" accepted by a panel.