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I got a start date!! What now?

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Driver31069

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I found out right before Xmas that I passed my DM interview and start in march pending a medical, which should be fine. I'm currently a bus driver, so no drink or drugs to worry about and I'm reasonably fit and healthy. Best news I've had in years!! Can't wait to start now.
I have been trying to learn as much as possible to help me when I start the course in march. Is there a place to download an up to date rule book, or anything else anyone can recommend to help revise before the course starts. I will be based at orpington station with southeastern. I figure the more knowledge I have before starting, the easier it should be to get through.

Cheers in advance for any help and info.
 
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Cherry_Picker

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Don't revise anything. You'll be issued with everything you need and taught everything you need to know on the course. There's no point in trying to 'get ahead' really, it might even backfire on you. Enjoy the next couple of months, enjoy the course and congratulations. ??????
 

ComUtoR

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I figure the more knowledge I have before starting, the easier it should be to get through.

Cheers in advance for any help and info.

Do NOT try to learn anything in advance. It is more detrimental than constructive. The courses are designed to teach you in such a way that it makes sense. Anything you try and learn often comes with misconceptions and is without context.

Go buy a big A4 folder with dividers
Pencils, pens, highlighters
Lined paper, plain paper, maybe some graph paper.

Relax and start the mental preparation it is gonna demand. Its a few weeks of class based study and if your not used to it, it can be a bit of a stress.

Plan a route to the Learning and Development Centre and check local traffic etc. Being Late is generally unacceptable. Smart casual / Suit is preferred until you get uniform.
 

Andy-mc

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I'd just kick back and enjoy your time in the lead up to March as everything you need to know will be taught to you on the course.

There's nothing wrong with having a little look into the basic workings of the railway, but I wouldn't really go down the route of reading through publications like the Rule Book as although its fairly easy to read through (plain English approved!!) most of it won't really help without being shown/given the real life scenarios in which those rules are to be implemented. (on my course we spent about a day and a half learning how to properly go through publications like the rule book, WON's, PON's and Sectional Appendix
 
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Aivilo

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You'll be taught everything you need to know, so congratulations enjoy your remaining days on the buses
 

Driver31069

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Ok, cheers folks. Thanks for taking the time to reply. Going to enjoy my last few months on the busses, and take a couple of weeks off before I start at southeastern. Can't wait to get started in March.

Cheers again
 

E&W Lucas

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Congratulations on your new career. I totally agree with the advice you've been given above. However, if you do want to get some background on why we do things the way that we do, you could try and get hold of a copy of Red For Danger by LTC Rolt. It's a history of railway accidents, and goes some way towards putting the Rules into context. There's another book called Obstruction Danger, written by an ex signalman, which is equally good.
 

signallerscot

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Don't bother with Red for Danger, it's an outdated load of claptrap by a dreadful author. It puts nothing in context and has zero relevance to the railway in 2017.
 

GMT

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Remember, if you see anything suspicious, please report it to a member of staff or the police.

And mind the gap between platform and the train.

Thank you and congratulations. :)
 

Bromley boy

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I found out right before Xmas that I passed my DM interview and start in march pending a medical, which should be fine. I'm currently a bus driver, so no drink or drugs to worry about and I'm reasonably fit and healthy. Best news I've had in years!! Can't wait to start now.
I have been trying to learn as much as possible to help me when I start the course in march. Is there a place to download an up to date rule book, or anything else anyone can recommend to help revise before the course starts. I will be based at orpington station with southeastern. I figure the more knowledge I have before starting, the easier it should be to get through.

Cheers in advance for any help and info.

Congrats on the offer!

Echoing the above, don't read up in advance. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and all that. The course is intended for people "off the street" with no prior knowledge.

What I would also say is, take the rules course seriously and don't let anything in your personal life interfere with. It's not academically challenging and is perfectly doable, but you do need to learn it. You'll probably only find yourself in the classroom 0900 - 1500 most days. I found an hour or so of consolidation/revision each day really helped. You cannot take any time off during rules, so make sure you are able to fully commit for they three months. No time off means just that. If you miss more then a day or two you'll be off the course, no matter what the reason. Things become a lot more flexible when you're out with your DI on the shift pattern.

Also, make the most of your group. You're in a small room together for a good few months! I was lucky to be placed with a great group of guys and we have a whatsap group we used to share questions/help each other out. That made the whole course more enjoyable and far less stressful. This has continued throughout the training course and now as newly qualified drivers.

Not to scare you, but make sure you go in with a professional attitude. In my group, eight of us commenced the course, only five of us have finished up with keys. Three were booted out along the way. They won't hesitate to remove people from the course if they don't perform. Also remember the drugs and alcohol policy applies as much in the classroom as in the cab!
 
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Bromley boy

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Why were the 3 booted out?

They didn't "muck the custard".

I won't be too specific on an Internet forum, suffice it to say, if you can't learn some basic facts, can't display a modicum of intelligence, show some people skills and a little respect to your tutors and colleagues, the railway isn't the place for you. Espescially for a £50k+ job with thousands of applicants.

You're paid almost £30k per year during the rules phase when very little is required other than turn up and learn what you're taught. If anything the course should be made more demanding, in my view, given the responsibility of the job.
 
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Economist

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Three out of eight does sound quite a high rate or attrition, I presume this isn't typical? Nonetheless the TOC I'm joining, which I believe could well be the one which Bromley boy is at, made it clear in the interview that they don't mess about. From what I can recall less than 90% in an exam is a fail and less than 80% may result in an exit from the course.
 

TheEdge

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Three out of eight does sound quite a high rate or attrition, I presume this isn't typical? Nonetheless the TOC I'm joining, which I believe could well be the one which Bromley boy is at, made it clear in the interview that they don't mess about. From what I can recall less than 90% in an exam is a fail and less than 80% may result in an exit from the course.

It sounds fairly atypical. I would be surprised if they would be booting people off the course for failing the odd paper immediately, I'd expect the trainer to go through it with you, explain and allow at least one resit. It would only be an issue if you consistently got awful marks.
 

Andy-mc

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It's amazing how people like that slip through the net when you have the initial recruitment drive, application sift, psychometric test (one designed to test your ability to learn and an interview to test your attitude) and then the final managers interview to check your overall suitability :|
 

ComUtoR

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It sounds fairly atypical. I would be surprised if they would be booting people off the course for failing the odd paper immediately, I'd expect the trainer to go through it with you, explain and allow at least one resit.

People are lost at all stages and sometimes for the most minor of things. The fact is that there is a pass mark and it MUST be achieved. You are warned from day 1 that if you do not achieve the required pass then you can be removed from the course.

There is no "odd" papers and on my TOC there is only 5 for the entire course and the pass mark is strictly enforced.

It would only be an issue if you consistently got awful marks.

You don't have an opportunity to get consistently low marks.

And yes, its that harsh.
 

ComUtoR

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It's amazing how people like that slip through the net when you have the initial recruitment drive, application sift, psychometric test (one designed to test your ability to learn and an interview to test your attitude) and then the final managers interview to check your overall suitability :|

How many would fail if there wasn't that process and initial sift ? It would also cost the company. The application process saves time, effort and money. It's a low failure rate and some people can't be helped and sometimes, just do something stupid.
 

Economist

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Whilst all TOCs must have their trainees meet a certain standard which is no doubt high, would it be fair to say that some have higher standards than others? Whilst I know this is a forum and perceptions are subjective, from what I can tell at least a couple in London/South East tend to be very strict.
 

TheEdge

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People are lost at all stages and sometimes for the most minor of things. The fact is that there is a pass mark and it MUST be achieved. You are warned from day 1 that if you do not achieve the required pass then you can be removed from the course.

There is no "odd" papers and on my TOC there is only 5 for the entire course and the pass mark is strictly enforced.



You don't have an opportunity to get consistently low marks.

And yes, its that harsh.

Thats interesting, I'm just finishing my driver course and never has any of that been mentioned at all. Maybe some TOCs are a lot more vicious than others...
 

ComUtoR

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Whilst all TOCs must have their trainees meet a certain standard which is no doubt high, would it be fair to say that some have higher standards than others?

I don't believe its a question of 'high' or 'low' standards. Just different rules for individual TOC's. When I took my course it was very different to what it is today. I've seen our rules course adapt and change over time and ours is now modular based. If you don't pass the end of module assessment then you can be removed from the course.

The problem is that what happens when you don't pass. How many attempts should you be allowed and within what time frame ? Is that then fair on the other Trainees ? At what point does the question paper become a test of memory over a test of aptitude ?

Our modular assessments are very good in that it provides a black and white line that is fair for all and without bias or ambiguity. You pass, or fail.

It gets harder as you progress and after rules you have traction and practical handling. There are some who fail on their 'Initial Competency Assessment' and that's the last step to becoming a Driver. Again, you get one shot and have zero entitlement to a second go. We've had a few fail recently. We have even had people going through their practical handling and been told they aren't up to scratch and cannot continue and that stage is purely subjective.

As TheEdge has just finished his training then maybe he could enlighten us with how their rules/traction/practical handling is set out and what the average failure rate at their TOC is.

My rules : (8)
1 Fail : No second attempt
2 Fail : Second attempt, Still failed
3 Fail : declined second attempt
4 Fail : Second attempt, removed from course
5 Pass : First time
6 Pass : First time (me)
7 Fail/Pass : passed on second attempt
8 Pass : second attempt

My Traction : (4)

Pass/Pass/Pass/Fail


Personally, I'd hate to get all the way to Practical Handling and then fail. Imagine a year of training and then being told your out of a job.

The initial sift is very generic and you must remember that there are various stages before you get your key. At ANY point you can be refused further training and have no right to another position.
 

GMT

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Good thread, very insightful, and it couldn't have been otherwise given that some of those who posted are train drivers with different degrees of experience.

However, I suppose it may even be a bit off-putting for some, but at the same time if you got discouraged by the content of some of these posts it would mean that your motivation is low. Bromley boy emphasised the importance of professionalism, I couldn't agree more, especially in the way you present yourself and interact with others. I remember when I went for the test, when the HR guy came back with the results one of us eight was slouched on the sofa. He didn't budge one inch, he stayed in that position. I couldn't believe it. He didn't pass, of course.
 

Economist

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I'd say it has been a good thread in that it really does drive home the high standards required.

One question I have is about the training schedule, I've been informed by my future TOC that it's a week for induction and PTS, 8 weeks for Rules, 3.5 weeks for Traction then the 300 or so hours of handling yet the course takes. 12-18 months.

I presume there must be quite a bit of simulator work and front end turns?
 

ComUtoR

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My TOC now has desk based simulators and they are used throughout the course.

Practical handling is just that. Your in the front and driving.

There is no specific requirement for using the Sim during practical handling but a DI can request it but that is specific to my TOC as we have the desktop sims and at a couple of Depots there is accessible training rooms. You get 5x "static" days to do with as you please and they are usually used to go round the units or some classroom training, maybe some shunts or attachments etc.

Not sure what you mean by 'front end turns' as they have different meanings across the TOC's but in general they mean your not specifically training and your just out in the front of a unit with a Driver.
 

Economist

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It does sound very interesting and I'm looking forward to it though I'll know doubt feel the pressure a bit. With front end turns I thought it was a generic term for anyone in the cab not driving. I'm desperately trying not to read too much or pick up too much railway terminology but I've spent so much time on here it's quite difficult!
 

ComUtoR

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With front end turns I thought it was a generic term for anyone in the cab not driving.

Kind of, yes. I think I've learned my lesson and that there are so many variations on terms between TOC's. I hear it more from our sister TOC than at my own.

I'm desperately trying not to read too much or pick up too much railway terminology but I've spent so much time on here it's quite difficult!

PM incoming.
 

Bromley boy

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I'd say it has been a good thread in that it really does drive home the high standards required.

One question I have is about the training schedule, I've been informed by my future TOC that it's a week for induction and PTS, 8 weeks for Rules, 3.5 weeks for Traction then the 300 or so hours of handling yet the course takes. 12-18 months.

I presume there must be quite a bit of simulator work and front end turns?

I think they say a year to eighteen months to manage peoples' expectations. In my group some were just under a year, some just over. A few trainees who have taken pay cuts to the trainee wage have become frustrated that they were told a year and the process has actually taken longer.

The rules and traction stage lasts for a predetermined amount of time and is very predictable. What happens after that is much more variable and depends on your depot, your DI and a bit of good luck!

Some people wait a few months for a DI and spend that doing cab rides. At some depots the DIs do a lot of work that isn't relevant to trainees and therefore lots of the shift will be spent in the second man's seat staring out of the window. The effect this has largely depends if your DI is willing to swap shifts for more relevant work. Some are, some aren't. Wrongly in my view as they're being paid a supplement to be a DI, but some are reluctant to swap short link 1 turns for longer jobs even where this would benefit their trainee. It just comes down to who you end up with.

The 300 hours is a rough guide and can take a long time to accrue. Keep in mind you can only log time when the wheels are actually turning. The clock stops if you're sat at a red signal for more than a minute or two and when you're changing ends. You're only working four days a week, some shifts are spent sitting cover and not driving, some shifts the DI may be doing route refreshers for qualified drivers, annual leave gets in the way (both the DI's and yours).

You need a minimum number of night hours which is easy at this time of year,
but tricky if you're training in the summer months if, say, you're with a DI who swaps for early shifts.

You also need to drive over each route a minimum number of times which can be surprisingly tricky to do in the case of some of the less used loops and diversionary routes (again depending on depot). Towards the end of the training the DI has to apply to be released from the roster so that you can go out and drive the routes you need, but this can be refused by rosters if they can't cover the DI's work.

The other roadblock a lot of people face is getting a slot with your manager to do your final assessment (these are minimum 4-5 days). The DMs are often on call and may have drivers off track post incident pending investigation and a whole range of other tasks occupying their time. This, coupled with not getting released with your DI for routes as mentioned above, can easily add a couple of months to your training during which you are fully ready for assessment but simply waiting to complete your routes or waiting for your manager to be free to assess you.

This is where it can grow frustrating. You're ready for assessment but still driving around with your DI whose bored stiff as he no longer has anything to teach you. The weeks are slipping by and you keep adding up in your head how much each extra week of delay is costing you!

So I would say it would be prudent to budget for over a year on trainee wage to be on the safe side. With a bit of good luck you may well be out within a lot less than 18 months.
 
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