I feel sympathy for train staff

[al78]

The filth of humanity they have to deal with. This clip shows just how powerless the guard is against a fare dodger. If they refuse to get off the train there looks to be nothing the guard can do. Any physical attempt to evict would be a potential assault charge. After seeing this I found myself wishing another passenger had got up and thumped him one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti9WaR7N50U

I am assuming this is a fare dodger, not someone who has lost his ticket.

 

[Bromley boy]

The filth of humanity they have to deal with. This clip shows just how powerless the guard is against a fare dodger. If they refuse to get off the train there looks to be nothing the guard can do. Any physical attempt to evict would be a potential assault charge. After seeing this I found myself wishing another passenger had got up and thumped him one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti9WaR7N50U

I am assuming this is a fare dodger, not someone who has lost his ticket.

Yes not great at all.

The guard lost his cool a bit, the fact it was all caught on film is unfortunate and a sign of the times.

I'm grateful there's a locked door between me and the passengers. I generally find that when someone starts playing silly buggers, a strategic announcement over the PA is usually enough to get impatient commuter/hairy-arsed builder on his way home/irate mum with kids in tow (delete as appropriate) to do the necessary swearing/physical removal for me .

 

[455driver]

The filth of humanity they have to deal with. This clip shows just how powerless the guard is against a fare dodger.

You are in the minority on here then, most posters want rid of the Guards.

 

[theageofthetra]

Instead of filming the garbage I would have gone over and quietly reminded it who subsidised its breeding then left it needing new testicles. Well played to the staff member for standing up to this filth. They're time is numbered.

 

[Polarbear]

I'm with the OP on this one - on-board staff are often stuck between a rock and a hard place when confronted with the sort of situation alluded to (I can't view the clip at the moment, but I can lay an educated guess about it).

Unfortunately, my impression is that this sort of thing is happening more frequently, and not just on the railways either. There seems to be a small, but growing minority of individuals who seem to have a warped sense of entitlement. In their mind, it's seemingly OK to abuse people, create a disturbance when challenged by any form of authority, and not pay for the service provided as they seem to think its a "victim-less crime".

Of course, there are always victims, but the low life that perpetrate this sort of thing are allowed to get away with it, because management are more concerned about protecting their brand name and run scared of what the media may say if they were to tackle the offending (offensive) individual.

Form my point of view, this is a problem that is going to become more intractable as time goes on, unless management get a grip, stop playing politics with the issue, and tackle it head on by investing sufficient resource in looking after the front line staff - who have a difficult enough job to do as it is.

 

[AM9]

Very slightly off topic, how would guards/OBSs here feel about wearing a recording camera to:
a) provide photographic and audible evidence of any conflict, - maybe allowing BTP to apprehend those involved
and
b) curing some of the rail management denial of the problem

 

[al78]

I'm with the OP on this one - on-board staff are often stuck between a rock and a hard place when confronted with the sort of situation alluded to (I can't view the clip at the moment, but I can lay an educated guess about it).

Unfortunately, my impression is that this sort of thing is happening more frequently, and not just on the railways either. There seems to be a small, but growing minority of individuals who seem to have a warped sense of entitlement. In their mind, it's seemingly OK to abuse people, create a disturbance when challenged by any form of authority, and not pay for the service provided as they seem to think its a "victim-less crime".

Of course, there are always victims, but the low life that perpetrate this sort of thing are allowed to get away with it, because management are more concerned about protecting their brand name and run scared of what the media may say if they were to tackle the offending (offensive) individual.

Form my point of view, this is a problem that is going to become more intractable as time goes on, unless management get a grip, stop playing politics with the issue, and tackle it head on by investing sufficient resource in looking after the front line staff - who have a difficult enough job to do as it is.

That is why they do it, because they know they can get away with it, because no-one can immediately force them to comply without getting on the wrong side of the law. Unless you have something like the BTP on every train (or at least those trains where it is known to be a problem), I can't immediately see what can be done. The cost of employing staff which would have the authority to genuinely force a perpetrator off the train would likely cost more than would be gained by the retrieval of the avoided fare(s), so management aren't going to do that for economic reasons. I guess it doesn't help that getting the BTP to deal with them at the next station would result in delay which the rail company may get fined for. It is like when people are antagonistic/obnoxious/offensive in online forums, the shield of anonymity and being outside punching distance of the person they are insulting protects them from consequences.

 

[Scotrail84]

Very slightly off topic, how would guards/OBSs here feel about wearing a recording camera to:
a) provide photographic and audible evidence of any conflict, - maybe allowing BTP to apprehend those involved
and
b) curing some of the rail management denial of the problem

Some ScotRail on board staff currently wear these already after a successful trail period.

 

[AlterEgo]

Very slightly off topic, how would guards/OBSs here feel about wearing a recording camera to:
a) provide photographic and audible evidence of any conflict, - maybe allowing BTP to apprehend those involved
and
b) curing some of the rail management denial of the problem

Some of XC's staff were trialling cameras in their name badges (with a flip down functionality to turn the camera on revealing a "RECORDING" message in the process). No idea how that trial turned out. It was a couple of years ago.

 

[QueensCurve]

The filth of humanity they have to deal with. This clip shows just how powerless the guard is against a fare dodger. If they refuse to get off the train there looks to be nothing the guard can do. Any physical attempt to evict would be a potential assault charge. After seeing this I found myself wishing another passenger had got up and thumped him one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti9WaR7N50U

I am assuming this is a fare dodger, not someone who has lost his ticket.

Perhaps TOCs could enlist United Airlines' Training protocol?

 

[coxxy]

Unfortunately the nail has been hit I'm the head.. absolutely nothing a guard can do in this situation other than wait for BTP.. usually taking a good while to get to the location and delaying all other passengers in the process..

I'm not sure a body can would help matters or inflame them.. the only way to stop this sort of confrontation is to man every station or have a higher police presence.. either of which cost money that no body will want to pay for..

 

[KN1]

Anyone in a job that entails them talking to and possibly arguing with the public has the same problems.
This is nothing specifically to do with the railways just an example of how a hell of a lot of the public are horrible individuals.

 

[Polarbear]

My proposal for addressing this sort of problem would be to adopt something along the lines of what Merseyrail do. That is to have a small group of security guards, suitably trained, and equipped with cameras (and if necessary, audio recording).

They would do random checks on trains and maybe at stations and would (in my opinion) act as a deterrent. Over time, word would get around about the regular spot-checks and one would hope to see a decrease in this sort of anti-social behaviour.

It's not a silver bullet, and I very much doubt it would stop all instances of fare evasion or abuse of staff, but it would go some way to assuring customers that the transport operators (it's not just rail that's affected by this) take this sort of thing seriously. It would also remove any responsibility to the crew of the train/bus to address such issues - which are not within their remit or training.

Yes, there is of course a cost attached to this to the operators. My argument to that is that by not doing something now, the cost to the company may become even greater in the future, through lost business as law abiding/fare paying customers turn away from using public transport as they start to perceive (rightly or wrongly) that their personal safety may be at risk.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

I haven't seen the clip, and I'm not going to either. I don't feel the need.

Fare dodging takes many forms. There is the scum element yes, but there are many more of the other types. Solicitors, Teachers, even tax inspectors have all been caught, Ripping off the railway to many feels like a victimless crime, so if they can get on a train and get off again without seeing a conductor, they think it is their lucky day rather than a criminal act.

The point is this, the guard at the moment being safety critical has every right to stop the train and wait for the police if they feel threatened. If you cannot do your job in safety that is what should happen.

Under DCO, the game will change again.

It is a sad state of affairs, but people not supporting the staff, even on here, are creating the conditions for more of these incidents.

 

[Highland37]

Remember the Big Man?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKKADFIEX84

 

[Darandio]

Remember the Big Man?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKKADFIEX84

How could anyone forget!

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Remember the Big Man?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKKADFIEX84

I do, sadly the big man is in a minority.

If you do a ticket check from scratch, you can often discover police officers travelling off duty, can be useful to do ticket checks, you never know what you might discover.

 

[Jonfun]

Some of XC's staff were trialling cameras in their name badges (with a flip down functionality to turn the camera on revealing a "RECORDING" message in the process). No idea how that trial turned out. It was a couple of years ago.

Still in use at some depots, with footage used successfully as evidence in court for assault cases.

 

[Polarbear]

I haven't seen the clip, and I'm not going to either. I don't feel the need.

Fare dodging takes many forms. There is the scum element yes, but there are many more of the other types. Solicitors, Teachers, even tax inspectors have all been caught, Ripping off the railway to many feels like a victimless crime, so if they can get on a train and get off again without seeing a conductor, they think it is their lucky day rather than a criminal act.

The point is this, the guard at the moment being safety critical has every right to stop the train and wait for the police if they feel threatened. If you cannot do your job in safety that is what should happen.

Under DCO, the game will change again.

It is a sad state of affairs, but people not supporting the staff, even on here, are creating the conditions for more of these incidents.

Well said.

even tax inspectors

Oh dear - we're not all that bad are we?

 

[Bromley boy]

I haven't seen the clip, and I'm not going to either. I don't feel the need.

Fare dodging takes many forms. There is the scum element yes, but there are many more of the other types. Solicitors, Teachers, even tax inspectors have all been caught, Ripping off the railway to many feels like a victimless crime, so if they can get on a train and get off again without seeing a conductor, they think it is their lucky day rather than a criminal act.

The point is this, the guard at the moment being safety critical has every right to stop the train and wait for the police if they feel threatened. If you cannot do your job in safety that is what should happen.

Under DCO, the game will change again.

It is a sad state of affairs, but people not supporting the staff, even on here, are creating the conditions for more of these incidents.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I previously worked with a bloke who earned circa £750k per year as a tax partner at a large accountancy firm and commuted into central London from Harpenden. He had worked out he could save money by getting onto the train at Harpenden without a ticket, getting off at West Hampstead and touching-in on the tube to continue his journey from there.

It's unbelievable that someone would risk their livelihood in this way, but shows the almost pathalogical lengths even very well paid people will sometimes go to in order to "get one over" on the railway.

 

[HLE]

Well said.



Oh dear - we're not all that bad are we?

Quick lads get 'im

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Very slightly off topic, how would guards/OBSs here feel about wearing a recording camera to:
a) provide photographic and audible evidence of any conflict, - maybe allowing BTP to apprehend those involved
and
b) curing some of the rail management denial of the problem

eminently sensible but of course the Unions would object out of contrarianism ... as they did with tachographs in LGVs, ambient listening functionality in airwave radios etc etc etc

 

[duncanp]

Perhaps UK rail operators should consider the approach they take on the City Rail system in Sydney, Australia.

There they have a dedicated squad of police who patrol the system and deter anti social behaviour, backed up with CCTV to look out for potential troublespots. The big difference is that these people are also responsible for revenue protection, and carry out random ticket checks.

So if someone is caught without a ticket and refuses to pay, they can be arrested or removed from the train on the spot.

There are probably loads of reasons why this will never happen in the UK though.

In general, however, what deters crime is not only the punishment, by the probability of getting caught.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

So the question has been asked. "Would I wear a camera and audible device" Let me tell you, Northern are considering these ideas, and I think as their subsidies go down and they have to protect their revenue more robustly, it is a very distinct possibility it will come.
I have no issue with it. But we have to remember audible devices don't just pick up one voice. It is very tempting for a guard in a argument to be (shall we say) less than diplomatic. I have said things in the heat of the moment I deeply regretted after, but we are all human.
Such devices can be a double edged sword, and that is something to consider.

People need to understand the bigger picture about issues like fare dodging. As annoying as it is, TOC's don't want us delaying a train at a cost of about £62 a minute for a £1.20 fare. It does not make business sense to them, and at a time where DCO and all the thrills that come with that come along, it is a problem that will just get worse.

As a guard, I will hold a train for the police to come only if I feel threatened. It is OK walking away from a conflict, but who's to say that the 'bellend' who is the problem, is not going to come marching down the platform when he gets off looking for a fight. All these things have to be considered, and it is not an easy decision to call. A guard assaulted is a train out of service. A guard assaulted on a DCO train is a train still running, so don't expect staff on a DCO train to put themselves in the firing line. The backup will not be there for them to do so.

It is a complicated issue, but people need to remember. I get a print out of court cases every month where 'Northern' have prosecuted fare dodgers, and the fines can be eye watering.

 

[DerekC]

As a passenger rather than a member of TOC staff I always wonder whether to "help" on these occasions. It can make matters worse, but occasionally it seems right. I recall an extremely stroppy, very posh and fairly drunk commuter on the 19:00 ex-Waterloo to Portsmouth trying to make the guard's life hell for refusing to accept his Super-Off peak ticket. That time I did "help" and the guard said thanks afterwards .. but I think it needs to be done with care. If there's a physical assault (rather than just verbal) that's a different matter.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

As a passenger rather than a member of TOC staff I always wonder whether to "help" on these occasions. It can make matters worse, but occasionally it seems right. I recall an extremely stroppy, very posh and fairly drunk commuter on the 19:00 ex-Waterloo to Portsmouth trying to make the guard's life hell for refusing to accept his Super-Off-Peak ticket. That time I did "help" and the guard said thanks afterwards .. but I think it needs to be done with care.

It does Derek. Life is very hard for guards these days. When I started on the railway there were few CCTV cameras and someone throwing a punch could easily get one back with interest, and there would be nothing to record it.

Move on to today. We cannot breathe without someone 'Tweeting' this and 'Tweeting' that. Often they have got completely the wrong facts, but that doesn't stop them. As bad as the recent 'United Airlines' video is, you can see how a incident can go around the world in days, and doesn't it look bad.

Who would be a guard these days? It is a no win situation and we are being attacked from all sides.

 

[Deepgreen]

You are in the minority on here then, most posters want rid of the Guards.

I don't think so - I would say the large majority of posts I have read on the issue want guards retained (including me).

 

[rebmcr]

I don't think so - I would say the large majority of posts I have read on the issue want guards retained (including me).

Agreed!

 

[Deepgreen]

Not so long ago I was on my way home, in first class, when the guard came in soon after leaving Victoria and caught a woman in the next bay without a first class ticket "because I'm only going to East Croydon"! He patiently explained to her that he would have to charge her £20 and she set about paying, but loudly proclaiming that he was being rude to her (he wasn't in the slightest). After a bit more of this, I loudly told her that I had heard everything the guard had said to her, that he wasn't being rude, but she was, and to behave herself. She asked what it had to do with me and I responded that her behaviour had made it to do with me, and she should stop causing a scene to try to excuse her own misdemeanour. She shut up.

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't think so - I would say the large majority of posts I have read on the issue want guards retained (including me).

Agreed!!