I am scared & have no idea what will happen next

[Dani23]

Hello everyone,

So long story shortish on the 9th of January I got caught on my way home from the gym (the ticket would have cost me about £4.90, about 5 train stops Slade Green to Woolwich Arsenal). I didn't have my card or anything on me to pay on the spot so I was told I would receive a letter in the post.

About two days later I got a letter asking for me to confirm if I was the person on the train in addition to asking for my national insurance number, I filled it out and sent it off. Two weeks past & I heard nothing so I decided to ring up and see if I could find out what was going on, if they had even received my letter, if I could pay online anything. They didn't have me on the system so I decided to write them a letter to see if I could find out what was going on & try and pay before the 21 days.

It has now been a month and still nothing. So today I called Southeastern and apparently there is still nothing on the system but I was told it is likely its being taken to the courts since I haven't heard anything back & its probably "out of southeastern's hands"-his exact words) and now with the magistrate. I was advised to call them up and see if they had anything. I also asked how long it could take to hear something back and I was told it could take months. Anyway I called the magistrates and nothing I wasn't on the system.

This is where I am starting to panic I don't know what to do or whats going on. I decided to write one more letter to Southeastern in hope of a response (fingers crossed) but I just don't know I feel a bit lost. I know it is my fault and I should have got a ticket but I just wish I knew what was happening next so I could move on with my life.

TWO QUESTIONS:
1- How long could it take for me to hear something back, how many months did some of you wait?
2- After you received the letter how soon was your court date, weeks month?

I just graduated and am trying to travel (backpacking) towards the end of the year so trying to figure timings out if I end up having a court date, don't want to be out of the country then summoned. I know its my fault but please any advice/insight, panicking a lot right now.

 

[MikeWh]

Can you clarify, have you been speaking to TfL, or Southeastern. If the train was between those two stations then it will have been either Southeastern or Thameslink. I'd be surprised if it had anything to do with TfL at all.

 

[Dani23]

Can you clarify, have you been speaking to TfL, or Southeastern. If the train was between those two stations then it will have been either Southeastern or Thameslink. I'd be surprised if it had anything to do with TfL at all.

I have been trying to correspond with Southeastern, my mistake. I was on a Thameslink train when I got fined.

 

[MikeWh]

I have been trying to correspond with Southeastern, my mistake. I was on a Thameslink train when I got fined.

Ok, so Southeastern are persuing the case. Did the letter you received two days later ask for anything other than you NI number? Usually the first correspondance asks for your version of events. It's also not unusual for that first letter to take many weeks to arrive.

In terms of the court date, they have to lay the information before the court within six months from the date of the incident, though the hearing may be after that. Southeastern do use Single Justice Procedure Notes where you are sent a letter by the court asking for a plea. If you plead guilty you don't have to turn up and the outcome is communicated to you shortly after the 'hearing'.

Finally, going forward, use your contactless payment card to travel on that route. The single fares are £3.20 peak and £2.60 off-peak.

 

[Dani23]

Ok, so Southeastern are persuing the case. Did the letter you received two days later ask for anything other than you NI number? Usually the first correspondance asks for your version of events. It's also not unusual for that first letter to take many weeks to arrive.

In terms of the court date, they have to lay the information before the court within six months from the date of the incident, though the hearing may be after that. Southeastern do use Single Justice Procedure Notes where you are sent a letter by the court asking for a plea. If you plead guilty you don't have to turn up and the outcome is communicated to you shortly after the 'hearing'.

Finally, going forward, use your contactless payment card to travel on that route. The single fares are £3.20 peak and £2.60 off-peak.

It didn’t ask for much other than name, DOB, national insurance & a signature. It did state I could write what happened on the back of the paper but I only wrote 2 or three lines since I thought there was no point trying to make up an elaborate defence. Probably should have written more in hindsight though.


My card will be on me at all times. Would have been a different situation if I just took my card with me to pay on the spot at least. I guess lesson learnt the hard way.

 

[MikeWh]

OK, well sending the first letter out in under a week is pretty amazing compared to many experiences. You were right about not trying to make up an elaborate defence - they will have heard variations on anything you could have said many times over. It would have been good to express remorse, assure them that you've learned your lesson and ask to close the matter as soon as possible by covering their costs investigating the matter.

Do you still have a copy of their letter, or at least any reference number? I don't think you will do any harm to write again explaining that you've reflected on your actions and want to unreservedly apologise. You could then ask if it would be possible to resolve the matter without troubling the courts and offer to pay the fare evaded and their costs investigating the matter. If you haven't got the reference number then include as much detail as you can - date, time, location, to enable them to match your letter with their file.

 

[some bloke]

I called Southeastern and apparently there is still nothing on the system but I was told it is likely its being taken to the courts since I haven't heard anything back & its probably "out of southeastern's hands"-his exact words) and now with the magistrate. I was advised to call them up and see if they had anything.

Did that phone call contribute much to your being scared? It may be that they worried you unnecessarily by making questionable claims about what was "likely" and "probable", and advising you to ask the court instead of giving contact details for the prosecution department. Was this Customer Services?

It cannot be "out of Southeastern's hands", since they can drop the prosecution and settle at any point before the case is called at court (including the option of the prosecutor agreeing this if you turn up early and meet them on the day).

The fact that they haven't replied yet may not mean anything more than that they have a lot of work on/are disorganised. If the details aren't on the letter, you could call Customer Services and ask for the prosecution department's email and phone number; and you could ask for confirmation that they've received your correspondence, including the letter that @MikeWh suggests.

if I end up having a court date, don't want to be out of the country then summoned.

If you are convicted in a court case you don't know about, it's easy to void the verdict and start again (still with the option of trying to persuade Southeastern to settle), through a statutory declaration. The form is under part 24:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/forms-2015



If you made the declaration before a solicitor and sent it to the court, the court couldn't attempt to deal with the case immediately (which the court might do if you make the declaration at court). Meanwhile you could write/talk again to the train company.

 

[Dani23]

OK, well sending the first letter out in under a week is pretty amazing compared to many experiences. You were right about not trying to make up an elaborate defence - they will have heard variations on anything you could have said many times over. It would have been good to express remorse, assure them that you've learned your lesson and ask to close the matter as soon as possible by covering their costs investigating the matter.

Do you still have a copy of their letter, or at least any reference number? I don't think you will do any harm to write again explaining that you've reflected on your actions and want to unreservedly apologise. You could then ask if it would be possible to resolve the matter without troubling the courts and offer to pay the fare evaded and their costs investigating the matter. If you haven't got the reference number then include as much detail as you can - date, time, location, to enable them to match your letter with their file.

I ended up writing another letter expressing remorse and a hope to settle out of court. Fingers crossed I hear something soon.

Thank you!

 

[Dani23]

Did that phone call contribute much to your being scared? It may be that they worried you unnecessarily by making questionable claims about what was "likely" and "probable", and advising you to ask the court instead of giving contact details for the prosecution department. Was this Customer Services?

It cannot be "out of Southeastern's hands", since they can drop the prosecution and settle at any point before the case is called at court (including the option of the prosecutor agreeing this if you turn up early and meet them on the day).

The fact that they haven't replied yet may not mean anything more than that they have a lot of work on/are disorganised. If the details aren't on the letter, you could call Customer Services and ask for the prosecution department's email and phone number; and you could ask for confirmation that they've received your correspondence, including the letter that @MikeWh suggests.


If you are convicted in a court case you don't know about, it's easy to void the verdict and start again (still with the option of trying to persuade Southeastern to settle), through a statutory declaration. The form is under part 24:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/forms-2015

View attachment 73455

If you made the declaration before a solicitor and sent it to the court, the court couldn't attempt to deal with the case immediately (which the court might do if you make the declaration at court). Meanwhile you could write/talk again to the train company.

It's a combination, the fact that I called up and I am not in the system and no one has an answer is unsettling but the info that I may go to court was the final bit that sent me into panic and has made me think of all the possible scenarios. Especially since this is something I am trying to resolve asap so it doesn't come and randomly bite me in the arse months or years later.

Yes it was customer service. Been calling up so many numbers and no one has had an answer for me except they don't know and i'll just have to wait.

I hope you are right about them being disorganised and a delay of info, fingers crossed it doesn't make it to court. I will call them in a few days that should give the letters I sent today and yesterday a chance to arrive.

Thank you for all the extra info, I feel a bit more at ease. Guess it is just a waiting game now.

 

[MikeWh]

Thank you for all the extra info, I feel a bit more at ease. Guess it is just a waiting game now.

Yes it is. For information, prosecution departments are usually totally separate to customer service departments and the latter are not able to see what's happening in the former. Hopefully your second letter will have the desired effect, but you will just have to wait for them to reply. I really wouldn't worry about being out of the country later in the year - I'm sure it will all be settled before then.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Please bear with me as I think some of the posts on here are in danger of taking you too far ahead too quickly.

From your original post it is clear that you boarded a train without a ticket and without means to pay the fare on demand. That is a clear offence. There is the simple offence of failing to hold a valid ticket contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18. The relevant clauses are 18.1; you boarded without a ticket and 18.2; you failed to produce a ticket when asked. However, the TOC also has the option of going for a more serious charge of intending to avoid a fare because according to your post, in addition to not having a ticket you also boarded without the means to pay. This makes it relatively easy for the TOC to pursue the more serious charge if they decide to do so. Many previous tests have resulted in precedents ruling 1) that 'a man cannot give what he does not have' and 2) that 'the fare is due at the time of travel and not later'.

The TOC wrote to you and you say "About two days later I got a letter asking for me to confirm if I was the person on the train in addition to asking for my national insurance number, I filled it out and sent it off." you added that "It didn’t ask for much other than name, DOB, national insurance & a signature. It did state I could write what happened on the back of the paper but I only wrote 2 or three lines since I thought there was no point trying to make up an elaborate defence. Probably should have written more in hindsight though."

The letter that you received is a verification letter. You have confirmed to the TOC that you are the person reported and have given all of the information that they will need to either issue a Summons or a Single Justice Procedure Notice. They have up to 6 months from the date of the alleged offence to lay the information before a Court. I am certain that if this only happened on 09th January, you can be certain that you have not yet been convicted so forget about the statutory declaration procedure.

MikeWH is right, it wouldn't hurt you write again, BUT you must make absolutely sure that you are writing to the office from which you received the verification letter. Forget about Customer Services and all other departments, the only one that matters at this time is the office that wrote to you. Hopefully, you have kept a copy of your letter and the case reference number allocated to your name. Send your letter by Royal Mail 'signed for'

I strongly suggest that you write directly to that office apologising to the Train Operating Company and their staff for your actions, give a firm undertaking that there will be no repeat of such an incident and ask if you may be allowed to pay the full fare avoided along with all of the reasonably incurred costs in dealing with this matter. in order to avoid Court action and thus maintain your good name.

Expressing remorse and explaining that any prosecution may have a disproportionate effect on your future may be looked upon favourably. If they agree you will need to pay the whole sum advised promptly.

If this approach is not successful then you should seek the assistance of a qualified criminal defence lawyer. A search of the internet will reveal some who specialise on rail fare evasion matters, but any competent criminal defence lawyer in your area should be able to help you.

 

[Dani23]

@Fare-Cop @MikeWh @some bloke hey guys I got a letter in the mail today!! I am being fined £139 in total.

I’m definitely getting off easy with a smaller fine but very vey happy I didn’t have to wait months to hear something. Thank you all for your advice & trying to put me at ease. Now I shall be a upstanding paying citizen, don’t need that hassle again.

 

[MikeWh]

@Fare-Cop @MikeWh @some bloke hey guys I got a letter in the mail today!! I am being fined £139 in total.

I’m definitely getting off easy with a smaller fine but very vey happy I didn’t have to wait months to hear something. Thank you all for your advice & trying to put me at ease. Now I shall be a upstanding paying citizen, don’t need that hassle again.

Thank you for letting us know. It's a bit pedantic but you've got a settlement to keep it out of court as only a court can issue a fine. However, as soon as you pay it the matter will be resolved and you won't get a criminal record either. It sounds like you've learnt your lesson too, which is the whole point of the process you've been through.

On another note, it is very pleasing to see at least one TOC processing cases in a relatively speedy manner.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Thank you for letting us know. It's a bit pedantic but you've got a settlement to keep it out of court as only a court can issue a fine. However, as soon as you pay it the matter will be resolved and you won't get a criminal record either. It sounds like you've learnt your lesson too, which is the whole point of the process you've been through.

On another note, it is very pleasing to see at least one TOC processing cases in a relatively speedy manner.

Pleased to see that it's worked out OK for you