IÉ: How do trains to/from Tralee call at Killarney?

[signed]

By pure curiosity, I was looking at OpenRailwayMap for Killarney and found that picture that boggles my mind

The platforms are in the termini, 1 and 2 island, for trains that come from the north (Mallow, Dublin Heuston) that's fine as the can run direct into the station

But trains to/from the north go to/come from Tralee. Tralee is located on the curving South Kerry Line.

How can those trains call at Killarney? As there are no connections into/out the station onto the South Kerry Line.

Is that a case of :

From Tralee using the aptly named Killarney Check line to reverse in line, using Tralee Junction to enter the station and reversing in termini? And the reverse when going the other way?

OpenRailwayMap

OpenRailwayMap - An OpenStreetMap-based project for creating a map of the world's railway infrastructure.

openrailwaymap.org

The picture shows the railway alignement around Killarney, Republic of Ireland, station

 

[hexagon789]

By pure curiosity, I was looking at OpenRailwayMap for Killarney and found that picture that boggles my mind

The platforms are in the termini, 1 and 2 island, for trains that come from the north (Mallow, Dublin Heuston) that's fine as the can run direct into the station

But trains to/from the north go to/come from Tralee. Tralee is located on the curving South Kerry Line.

How can those trains call at Killarney? As there are no connections into/out the station onto the South Kerry Line.

Is that a case of :

- From Tralee using the aptly named Killarney Check line to reverse in line entering the termini and reversing in termini?
- From Dublin reversing in termini and then reversing on the line?

OpenRailwayMap

OpenRailwayMap - An OpenStreetMap-based project for creating a map of the world's railway infrastructure.

openrailwaymap.org

The picture shows the railway alignement around Killarney, Republic of Ireland, station
View attachment 186530

Exactly that, they reverse in and out.

From Mallow to Tralee:

Run into Killarney conventionally.

Reverse out to the check, resume original direction and head to Tralee.

Going the other way towards Mallow, trains run past Killarney Station and reverse in. Change direction again and head off to Mallow.

It was possibly more awkward until units replaced loco-haulage from about ~2005 onwards, trains would propel in and out - no running round or anything.

Push-pull Mk3 sets did appear on the local workings on the line in the dying days of traditional loco-haulage in Ireland though would have actually taken longer for the reversal as the driver would have to change ends.


As to why Killarney is like this?

The station was where the line originally terminated before being extended to Tralee, there is a steep gradient away from Killarney heading off to Tralee and the station as it is is quite conveniently sited for the town.

 

[Gloster]

Trains from Mallow run directly into Killarney, then propel back out (it is probably easier with DMUs nowadays) again before starting off to Tralee. The opposite occurs on the return. It is easier now as until sometime in the 1980s (or possibly 1990s) there were no connections allowing trains to run directly to Tralee and the trains had to propel back in to a lengthy headshunt or, on the return, run into it before propelling back into the platform…and the same applied to goods.

 

[signed]

Very interesting, thanks both, the driver's not changing ends is the reason why it appears relatively quick to do the manoeuvre on the videos I found

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The reversing siding is still used if trains are scheduled to pass, or for out of course working. On my last visit the erstwhile Belmond train was stopping the job completely! Unfortunately the very attractive station has been ruined by the 'shopping outlet' slap right against it

 

[izvor]

I believe there was/is another station in Ireland where this happened, but can't remember which. (Not including Limerick Junction, which was totally over the top round the back etc.)

edit: Kilkenny?

 

[Gloster]

I believe there was/is another station in Ireland where this happened, but can't remember which. (Not including Limerick Junction, which was totally over the top round the back etc.)

edit: Kilkenny?

Not quite. At Kilkenny trains in both directions ran in from the south, the loco ran round and then the trains departed south. There were two parallel lines as far as Lavistown where they diverged: one to Muine Bheag, the other to Thomastown. Since the 1980s (or 1990s) there has been a third side to a triangle at Lavistown and only a single track to Kilkenny.

There was a similar arrangement at Newcastle West and possibly, very briefly, long ago at Birr (Parsonstown).

 

[izvor]

There was a similar arrangement at Newcastle West

Thanks for this, I was probably thinking of this one.

 

[Gloster]

Thanks for this, I was probably thinking of this one.

Newcastle West lost its passenger services in 1963.

 

[Taunton]

Not unknown elsewhere, the extension line being built after the original terminus. Dorchester South used to be just the same, with the Weymouth extension requiring reversing. A direct Down platform was built later in Victorian times, but Up services had to do the reversal and restart until 1970, well after Class 33 + 4-TC ran the service. Shipley in West Yorkshire was similar, as was Scarborough for trains on the old Middlesbrough line, both these lasting well into dmu days. These latter had to reverse four times in the journey, which must be something of a record.

I actually used Killarney back in the 1960s, the reversal of a (loco-hauled) train coming from Tralee was notably smart and little time seemed lost by it.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Limerick Junction finally has a down platform on the mainline - after 171 years - but trains to and from Waterford still have a complicated manoeuvre. The Waterford line crosses the Cork mainline on the flat, but the connecting spur points towards Limerick Colbert, thus requiring a reversal to access the bay platform.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Cross city trains in Belfast used to reverse in Great Victoria St. but with the opening of Grand Central the services have been split.

Back in the day when there boat trains from Dun Laoghaire, these used to run round to Heuston for onward connections, requiring a reversal to reach the platforms.

 

[signed]

More curiosity, as I find that very interesting, how do safety arrangements work with a train reversing with the driver not facing the direction of reverse?

Does IÉ have cameras on stock for those manoeuvres?

 

[High Dyke]

More curiosity, as I find that very interesting, how do safety arrangements work with a train reversing with the driver not facing the direction of reverse?

When I first saw that alignment I thought that was like

Does IÉ have cameras on stock for those manoeuvres?

I would suggest that some form.of communication with the guard would be used.

Looking at YouTube videos, this method of working also occurs in other countries.

 

[stadler]

I would suggest that some form.of communication with the guard would be used.

Looking at YouTube videos, this method of working also occurs in other countries.

Those trains are fully DOO so there is definitely no guard onboard. It is just the driver onboard. Irish Rail is 100% DOO except for the cross border Enterprise trains.

 

[Steddenm]

Those trains are fully DOO so there is definitely no guard onboard. It is just the driver onboard. Irish Rail is 100% DOO except for the cross border Enterprise trains.

Irish Rail are not fully DOO. Most InterCity services have either a guard or "competent person" on board, Enterprise have a guard and Commuter/DART have revenue protection.

 

[stadler]

Irish Rail are not fully DOO. Most InterCity services have either a guard or "competent person" on board, Enterprise have a guard and Commuter/DART have revenue protection.

It is still considered DOO as the staff onboard are not a "guard" nor are they guaranteed to be onboard. Enterprise is the only train with proper guards. Irish Rail only employ eight guards and all eight solely work Enterprise services.

The staff on the intercity trains are Customer Service Officers whose main job is checking and selling tickets and assisting passengers. They are not a safety critical role and have no involvement in despatch or operation of the train. They are not even guaranteed and trains often run without them onboard.

The staff on the commuter and dart services are Revenue Protection Officers whose job is to check tickets and issue penalty fares. They roam around the network and are only present on a very small number of trains. Most of the commuter and dart trains have nobody other than the driver onboard.

 

[Taunton]

Limerick Junction finally has a down platform on the mainline - after 171 years - but trains to and from Waterford still have a complicated manoeuvre. The Waterford line crosses the Cork mainline on the flat, but the connecting spur points towards Limerick Colbert, thus requiring a reversal to access the bay platform.

Limerick Junction was indeed the most extraordinary, a long double-length platform wholly off to one side of the main lines, with bays at both ends. The only direction which had direct access was the shuttle from Limerick; all others, until some alterations were done, required reversals across mid-platform crossovers to get in. Dublin to Cork expresses in opposite directions would often be there together to make branch connections, and would stand there with the locomotives facing one another., both having reversed in. There seemed a desire to avoid facing points on the main lines.

The most bizarre were the Waterford line trains, which line was not accessible directly anyway but used the bay facing in the opposite direction, towards Cork. On leaving, the loco pulled forward into a long headshunt. It then reversed, propelling along a line round the back of the station building, over a level crossing with manual gates over the approach road, and back onto the Limerick line. Another reversal, and forward across the main line on the level towards Waterford.

Once described as "the only station where every train has to go through it or past it before it can get into it".

 

[stadler]

What i do not understand is why they kept this ridiculous manoeuvre at Killarney instead of building a platform on the through line. The through line right next to the station has space for a platform. It is just the other side of the car park which would be a one minute walk from the current terminus platform. They could easily build a platform on the through line at Killarney and close the current terminus platform. This would get rid of the ridiculous double reversal maneuver and nobody would be inconvenienced as it would still be right next to the current station.

 

[Gloster]

What i do not understand is why they kept this ridiculous manoeuvre at Killarney instead of building a platform on the through line. The through line right next to the station has space for a platform. It is just the other side of the car park which would be a one minute walk from the current terminus platform. They could easily build a platform on the through line at Killarney and close the current terminus platform. This would get rid of the ridiculous double reversal maneuver and nobody would be inconvenienced as it would still be right next to the current station.

The through line next to the station is on a steeply graded embankment. The car park is only a fairly recent development (1990s?) as that used to be the goods yard. I have a feeling that the station has a preservation order on it. And, frankly, trains in Ireland are not so tightly timed, especially in Kerry, that anyone is going to worry about the odd couple of minutes. Remember, the passengers are going to spend a lot more time getting to the platform than the train gains.

 

[D6130]

What i do not understand is why they kept this ridiculous manoeuvre at Killarney instead of building a platform on the through line. The through line right next to the station has space for a platform. It is just the other side of the car park which would be a one minute walk from the current terminus platform. They could easily build a platform on the through line at Killarney and close the current terminus platform. This would get rid of the ridiculous double reversal maneuver and nobody would be inconvenienced as it would still be right next to the current station.

That would require a passing loop with two additional platforms....plus lifts and stairs from the car park, due to the difference in levels between the terminus station and the Tralee line. It's also not the done thing these days to build new stations and platforms on sharp curves and/or steep gradients.

 

[Gloster]

I thought there were one or two more:

Galway, where the Clifden trains (ceased 1935) had to back out before heading away, although there were probably few through trains.
The other Newcastle (County Down) where Castlewellan trains had to reverse after arriving from Belfast.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I thought there were one or two more:

Galway, where the Clifden trains (ceased 1935) had to back out before heading away, although there were probably few through trains.
The other Newcastle (County Down) where Castlewellan trains had to reverse after arriving from Belfast.

Some Belfast to Newcastle trains also reversed at Downpatrick (the original terminus) rather than using the direct loop line and Downpatrick Loop station.

Trains from Belfast on the NCC main line to Derry / Londonderry also had to reverse at Greenisland until the direct Bleach Green viaduct was built in 1934.

The Dundalk, Newry and Greenore Rly (closed 1951) was intetesting, requiring reversal at Greenore.and a complicated reversal / manoeuvre at Dundalk to gain the GN platforms.

 

[MarcVD]

There used to be a similar operation in Spain 15 years ago, I don't know whether it's still in place today.

in 2010 I was on board a Spanish train named "Garcia Lorca". It was a multiple sections train, from Barcelona, with sections going to Sevilla, Malaga, and Granada. At some point we pulled into the main station of Malaga, which seems to be a terminus. After some 10 minutes, the train reversed, for a kilometer or two, loco pushing back. And then, after a junction, forward again. Two people directed the maneuver from behind, one with a portable radio talking to the driver, the other one with a portable brake lever attached to the main air conduit of the last carriage. I was standing just behind them to observe the operation.

It seems that this train was quite complex to operate. First this reversal, then another one in Alcazar de San Juan where the loco swapped ends, and two stops en route to drop the Seville and Granada sections. Last leg of the Granada section was behind a diesel loco. The cars were the Arco ones that were later sold to Portugal. I suppose that this train does not exist anymore today.

 

[david_g]

I thought there were one or two more:

Galway, where the Clifden trains (ceased 1935) had to back out before heading away, although there were probably few through trains.
The other Newcastle (County Down) where Castlewellan trains had to reverse after arriving from Belfast.

There was also another one in Ireland on the 3ft gauge Schull and Skibbereen where trains to Schull had to reverse out of Skibbereen into a headshunt before going off in the direction of Schull.

 

[Taunton]

Inverness long had a procedure where some arriving trains, from both directions, ran past the station, and then reversed into the platforms used for departures in the opposite direction, done apparently to make connections into ongoing services more straightforward.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

There used to be a similar operation in Spain 15 years ago, I don't know whether it's still in place today.

in 2010 I was on board a Spanish train named "Garcia Lorca". It was a multiple sections train, from Barcelona, with sections going to Sevilla, Malaga, and Granada. At some point we pulled into the main station of Malaga, which seems to be a terminus. After some 10 minutes, the train reversed, for a kilometer or two, loco pushing back. And then, after a junction, forward again. Two people directed the maneuver from behind, one with a portable radio talking to the driver, the other one with a portable brake lever attached to the main air conduit of the last carriage. I was standing just behind them to observe the operation.

It seems that this train was quite complex to operate. First this reversal, then another one in Alcazar de San Juan where the loco swapped ends, and two stops en route to drop the Seville and Granada sections. Last leg of the Granada section was behind a diesel loco. The cars were the Arco ones that were later sold to Portugal. I suppose that this train does not exist anymore today.

It has been replaced by the 'Torre del Orro' Barcelona to Cadiz and v.v. using an 'Alvia' set. Reversal is still required at Alcazar. For a time it was operated by a pair of 'Alaris' EMUs enabling it to still have a Malaga portion.

 

[izvor]

I would suggest that some form of communication with the guard would be used.

Looking at YouTube videos, this method of working also occurs in other countries.

There are several stations across Europe that I can think of where trains have to reverse out to gain a branch line. A main line example was Nîmes, France, where gaining the Cévennes line towards Clermont Ferrand required a reversal into/out of the station. I believe this has now been avoided by an elevated triangular junction.

Through trains between Pardubice and Náchod in the Czech Republic require a "zig-zag" reverse up/down a steep bank midway. When I used it about 30 years ago the loco did not run round at each end; the train simply reversed up the gradient with the loco at the rear and guard, equipped with a walkie-talkie, standing in the opened corridor connection of the rear coach (now at the front), to oversee progress - which was not slow - 4 minutes was allowed for the 3km stretch!

There are still trains that run this service, still with only 2-3 minutes dwell time at each end of the reverse, so I wonder if these are now all unit, or if not what arrangements apply now? I would be interested to know.

 

[High Dyke]

Inverness long had a procedure where some arriving trains, from both directions, ran past the station, and then reversed into the platforms used for departures in the opposite direction, done apparently to make connections into ongoing services more straightforward.

I've done that. The afternoon/evening train from Kyle of Lochalsh used to continue on to Aberdeen, I believe. So the service used the curve avoiding the station to then run into the lower numbered platforms for the onwards journey.

 

[D6130]

I've done that. The afternoon/evening train from Kyle of Lochalsh used to continue on to Aberdeen, I believe. So the service used the curve avoiding the station to then run into the lower numbered platforms for the onwards journey.

The majority - if not all - trains arriving from the Far North and Kyle lines used to do that.... partially to facilitate passenger interchange for those heading South and East - and also to avoid having to shunt out into the single line token section from Rose Street to Lentran.

 

[Taunton]

There were/still are several points on the USA/Amtrak network where trains arriving at a dead-end terminus will go round a triangle on the approach, and then slowly reverse in, to suit departing the 'right way round', US trains being effectively unidirectional, both for formation and individual seats. It even happened mid-journey. The San Francisco Zephyr from Chicago certainly used to reverse into Denver, though I haven't taken it since the station there was rebuilt.