Hypothetical situation re trainspotters

[DasLunatic]

A trainspotter enters his local station to watch/video the trains through the station. He explains this to the person on the ticket line who waves him through. A ticket inspector approaches the spotter and penalty fares him for being ticketless, despite not travelling.

1) Is the inspector legally able to do this?
2) Although the spotter hasn't travelled, can he still be prosecuted as if he had?
3) Have any instances similar to this been recorded on this forum?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does this hypothetical situation happen in a Compulsory Travel Area?

 

[DasLunatic]

Does this hypothetical situation happen in a Compulsory Travel Area?

It does, yes. Between being waved through and the inspector arriving, the person on the barrier has changed and has no knowledge of the spotter being let through.

... I didn't know CTAs were a thing - where are they exactly?

 

[AlterEgo]

Freudian slip, I meant Compulsory Ticket Area. Usually in urban, PF stations. There are fewer than there used to be, I think.

 

[185143]

I've been waved through at Birmingham Moor Street before to phot a skip.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[DasLunatic]

Freudian slip, I meant Compulsory Ticket Area. Usually in urban, PF stations. There are fewer than there used to be, I think.

It is also in a Compulsory Ticket Area, then.

 

[221129]

It is also in a Compulsory Ticket Area, then.

Then yes they can.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

save the hassle and buy a platform ticket. 10p for an hour.

 

[AlterEgo]

save the hassle and buy a platform ticket. 10p for an hour.

Good luck finding someone to issue one!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

ticket office.

if there's a barrier with staff on duty then there will be a ticket office.

 

[185143]

ticket office.

if there's a barrier with staff on duty then there will be a ticket office.

Unless its Edinburgh Park...
(Not a CTA I know)

 

[najaB]

It is also in a Compulsory Ticket Area, then.

Then yes they can.

Indeed, the clue is in the name.

 

[Stigy]

A trainspotter enters his local station to watch/video the trains through the station. He explains this to the person on the ticket line who waves him through. A ticket inspector approaches the spotter and penalty fares him for being ticketless, despite not travelling.

1) Is the inspector legally able to do this?
2) Although the spotter hasn't travelled, can he still be prosecuted as if he had?
3) Have any instances similar to this been recorded on this forum?

Many thanks in advance.

If they've been given permission, then no, definitely for 1 and 3, and I'm pretty sure not for 3 either. Not sure a PF would apply anyway, as I'd imagine one would have had to have completed a journey?

 

[furlong]

And of course the real answer is that it depends on what the local arrangements at the particular station are:

4.9 Warning notices must be placed at each entrance to the CTA, in line with rule 4. CTAs can cause confusion if there are no barriers at the entrance to the platforms because people think that they are free to walk onto the platforms without a ticket. So it is very important that a CTA is clearly marked so that people know they must have a ticket or platform ticket before they enter that area.

4.10 At stations with a CTA, operators must make arrangements for people who are not travelling to be allowed into the part of the station covered by the CTA, if they have a good reason. This includes people who are meeting passengers, seeing passengers off or helping them with luggage, people helping passengers with disabilities, and people such as railway enthusiasts. The arrangements might include making platform tickets available at the ticket office or from a machine. People who are helping passengers with disabilities should not be charged to enter a CTA.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

save the hassle and buy a platform ticket. 10p for an hour.

+1

I normally have a ticket or Oyster to travel in any case

 

[najaB]

If they've been given permission, then no...

Though this does bring us back to the question of if a gateline assistant can give such permission. I think they can but there's a persuasive argument that doing so would exceed their authority, making that permission invalid.

 

[MikeWh]

Though this does bring us back to the question of if a gateline assistant can give such permission. I think they can but there's a persuasive argument that doing so would exceed their authority, making that permission invalid.

Running with that, does that mean that you should not only ask permission, but also ask whether the person is authorised to give permission, and maybe also ask for their manager, or a letter in writing, confirming that genuinely authorised permission has been given, just in case a pedantic RPI comes along half an hour later?

Just how stupid does this have to get?

 

[najaB]

Just how stupid does this have to get?

I know, but we had that argument in the past as to if a gateline assistant is an 'authorised person' as far as Byelaw 18 is concerned.

Platform ticket. Problem solved.

 

[EM2]

I know, but we had that argument in the past as to if a gateline assistant is an 'authorised person' as far as Byelaw 18 is concerned.

25. Interpretation
(1) Definitions
In these Byelaws the following expressions have the following meanings:
“authorised person” means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or
(ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in
connection with the railway;

That's all that is required to be an "authorised person".

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I have regularly asked to be allowed through a barrier without a ticket when assisting someone with heavy luggage, welcoming a visitor on the platform, assisting someone with the need for assistance, putting or collecting a bicycle from a platform-side cycle rack. And I have regulary found that the staffing arrangement has changed when I return back through the barrier.

It's never given rise to a problem and I have never imagined that it would.
But then I seem to be blessed with only meeting friendly and helpful railway staff (several yesterday went well beyond the minimum to give me welcome service, including a driver getting out of the cab, a guard and a crew leader joining me at my seats, a few cheery nods or waves, and some excrutiating dark humour from some security staff).

 

[najaB]

That's all that is required to be an "authorised person".

I know, this is the argument we had before. It all comes down to the phrase "acting in the course of his duties" - if a gateline agent is supposed to stop people who don't have a ticket, is he acting in or out of the course of his duties when he lets someone past who doesn't have one.

As I said, I think he is but understand and can't find the logical flaw in the argument that he is not.

 

[306024]

Just how stupid does this have to get?

Too late for that question

According to enthusiast friends, Ipswich staff get the balance just right.

 

[Stigy]

I know, this is the argument we had before. It all comes down to the phrase "acting in the course of his duties" - if a gateline agent is supposed to stop people who don't have a ticket, is he acting in or out of the course of his duties when he lets someone past who doesn't have one.

As I said, I think he is but understand and can't find the logical flaw in the argument that he is not.

I would say he most definitely is acting in the course of his duties. He is in charge of the barrier line and is an employee or agent of the railway. I'd say that means he or she is able to allow this using the most basic of interpretations of the phrase. It's his or her call as he or she is potentially the first and only contact with rail staff on entering the station.

I know we've done this argument to death, but Byelaw 25 isn't specific, therefore even the station cleaner can give such authority in this respect.Acting in the course of his duties could just mean receiving a question from a customer whilst sweeping the platform. It'll be part of his duty to offer customer advice if he or she is public facing. Although this sometimes doesn't come naturally...

 

[neilmc]

Sounds like the kind of idiocy inflicted on Londoners - I've never even seen a CTA. Maybe TfL will start to issue penalty fares to people without valid Oyster cards who are standing on the street in the vicinity of a bus stop even if they don't actually board a bus?

 

[sheff1]

I know, this is the argument we had before.

This is the (one of ?) previous discussion. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=123737

I love the section where posters make up their own version of the Byelaws and then use those pretend clauses to back up their argument !

 

[Agent_c]

I've seen the briefs that Network Rail give out for their mystery shoppers. Asking to pass the barrier to help an elderly family member is one of the scenarios they ask people to do.

 

[bb21]

Sounds like the kind of idiocy inflicted on Londoners - I've never even seen a CTA. Maybe TfL will start to issue penalty fares to people without valid Oyster cards who are standing on the street in the vicinity of a bus stop even if they don't actually board a bus?

Ahem, Lebanon Road, ahem. Hello, I need to get into my house. I can't without buying a tram ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Though this does bring us back to the question of if a gateline assistant can give such permission. I think they can but there's a persuasive argument that doing so would exceed their authority, making that permission invalid.

If a member of barrier staff cannot give permission for you to cross the barrier to the paid side, I wonder what his job is.

There shouldn't even be an argument on this one. I know some people want to argue whether barrier staff have the power to authorise travel without a ticket or with an otherwise invalid ticket, but that is not relevant for the issue under discussion here.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

There's often quite a few spotters on my local station, and I've often wondered how they get access.

Quite a few of them are local and are known to the staff, but there are also visitors from time to time. I'm not aware of a platform ticket being available - at least, there are no signs saying that there is one - but it's always possible that a blind eye is turned to the locals and the visitors have actually arrived (and will depart) by train, for which they have a valid ticket.

 

[najaB]

If a member of barrier staff cannot give permission for you to cross the barrier to the paid side, I wonder what his job is.

There shouldn't even be an argument on this one. I know some people want to argue whether barrier staff have the power to authorise travel without a ticket or with an otherwise invalid ticket, but that is not relevant for the issue under discussion here.

I agree that there shouldn't be an argument, but I'm imagining the kind of contract staff that Northern (and others) like to employ giving permission, and then later encountering a directly employed RPI. The impression I get from some posts here that there can be 'friction' between the two groups with the RPIs often trying to override anything that the contract staff say.

As I said above, I personally don't see a problem but common sense doesn't necessarily apply.

 

[Clip]

Sounds like the kind of idiocy inflicted on Londoners - I've never even seen a CTA. Maybe TfL will start to issue penalty fares to people without valid Oyster cards who are standing on the street in the vicinity of a bus stop even if they don't actually board a bus?

That would be the case were bus stops CTAs but as theyre not then its a silly comparison.

However I do believe that the DLR is a CTA and this starts where the red line is.