Hypothetical Money Situation

[GrantR]

This is slightly hypothetical, it has happened to me before but with Metrolink. And I had means to pay that particular time.

I live in Scotland, but regularly come down south to travel with Northern. Say for example that I had arrived in Manchester the previous day after withdrawing the last of my money for that month, and had been given it all in Scottish notes. I then started a journey at a station with no ticket office, but a cash/card TVM, Mills Hill for example. I attempt to pay using the machine, but for whatever reason it refuses to take my Scottish note. I then decide to just go into Manchester anyway, buying on the train. The conductor doesn't make an appearance before Victoria, so I go and attempt to buy a ticket, but instead get booked up by an RPI, who tells me that I had to buy before I boarded at Mills Hill, which I had attempted to do, but refused to believe that both a) that was the only money I had and b) that the TVM refused to take it.

Am I in the right? Or is he?

I attempted to buy before I boarded, I had the means to pay, so I don't see any reason why I wouldn't be, but just in case it ever does happen to me, any idea of what I should be doing?

 

[najaB]

I believe you would be fine - you can't be held responsible for the machine's failure to accept a valid banknote.

 

[CentralTrainer]

From the National Rail site:

The following are accepted as methods of payments at National Rail stations and retail outlets. They also apply to paying on-train when no opportunity to purchase beforehand existed.
Self-service ticket machines at National Rail stations will accept a more limited range of payment.

Information shown might not apply to National Rail products purchased at independent rail licensed travel agents or from other third party retailers.

Cash
Any combination of notes and coins are accepted, as below.

Bank Notes of the British Isles

The following bank notes may be accepted:
Bank notes issued by the Bank of England and bearing a portrait of Her Majesty the Queen;
Sterling notes issued by Allied Irish Banks plc
Sterling notes issued by Bank of Ireland
Sterling notes issued by Northern Bank Ltd
Sterling notes issued by Ulster Bank Ltd
Bank notes issued by Bank of Scotland
Bank notes issued by Clydesdale Bank plc
Bank notes issued by Royal Bank of Scotland
Sterling bank notes issued by the Isle of Man Bank Ltd
Sterling bank notes issued by States of Guernsey
Sterling bank notes issued by States of Jersey

 

[Haywain]

Regardless of what National Rail might accept, if you are heading to England on that basis there would seem to be some logic to getting your cash issued in Bank of England notes if possible. I believe that banks in Scotland will do this on request, and would avoid problems with any retailer in England refusing to accept your Scottish notes, as many are inclined (and within their rights) to do. It's your choice, of course, but I would tend to avoiding perceived hassle where possible. It's why I don't stock up with cash when I'm at the end of a visit to Scotland.

 

[hexagon789]

While it may seem strange or even ridiculous Scottish banknotes are not "legal tender" in England, merely "acceptable tender". Retailers can accept them in lieu of English banknotes but are within their rights to refuse to do so if they wish.

 

[najaB]

While it may seem strange or even ridiculous Scottish banknotes are not "legal tender" in England, merely "acceptable tender".

English banknotes aren't either.

Retailers can accept them in lieu of English banknotes but are within their rights to refuse to do so if they wish.

As they can with English banknotes.

 

[Agent_c]

While it may seem strange or even ridiculous Scottish banknotes are not "legal tender" in England, merely "acceptable tender". Retailers can accept them in lieu of English banknotes but are within their rights to refuse to do so if they wish.

Scottish banknotes arent legal tender in Scotland either.

In any case, if you are paying for your ticket in advance the concept of legal tender is irrelevant - the only role "legal tender" plays in England is to provide a valid defence to the payment of a debt. Where a service is yet to be rendered the form of payment is simply between the parties to decide in their contract - in this case the NCOT which someone has quoted.

To the OP, the only place I've had trouble using a Scottish note is at a stall in Portsmouth. I doubt you'll have any problems.

 

[455driver]

The following bank notes may be accepted:

Note the use of the word MAY and not the use of the word WILL.

 

[AlterEgo]

English banknotes aren't either.As they can with English banknotes.

English banknotes are legal tender in England, but the concept of legal tender is irrelevant to this discussion, as the purchase is happening before the service is delivered.

 

[soil]

So this story didn't actually happen? Or what?

 

[IanM]

From the National Rail site:



Bank Notes of the British Isles

The following bank notes may be accepted:
..............
Sterling bank notes issued by the Isle of Man Bank Ltd
......

Now that surprises me. I had always believed that IoM bank notes are not accepted anywhere off Island. Coins, on the other hand, are the same size, shape and weight......!

 

[najaB]

English banknotes are legal tender in England...

For payment of a debt, but not in this circumstance. The retailer can refuse them the same as they can refuse Scottish notes.

 

[reb0118]

..... IoM ..... coins, on the other hand, are the same size, shape and weight......!

And the funny thing is that their coins are not legal currency in the UK, but will generally be accepted without quibble whereas their notes are legal currency but I doubt you'll pass those without much comment.



Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[WelshBluebird]

You don't even have to muddy the waters with the Scottish notes for this one. The old "English" paper £5 notes are being withdrawn and will stop being accepted and handed out in about 6 weeks. Currently a lot of TVM's don't accept the new plastic £5 note and it doesn't look likely that they will be accepting them in 6 weeks time. So you end up with the situation of having valid means to pay but not being able to use it. And the same situation will happen when the new £1 coins are introduced (next week) and presumably the new £10 notes too (this summer).

 

[Master29]

Regardless of what National Rail might accept, if you are heading to England on that basis there would seem to be some logic to getting your cash issued in Bank of England notes if possible. I believe that banks in Scotland will do this on request, and would avoid problems with any retailer in England refusing to accept your Scottish notes, as many are inclined (and within their rights) to do. It's your choice, of course, but I would tend to avoiding perceived hassle where possible. It's why I don't stock up with cash when I'm at the end of a visit to Scotland.

Clearly irrelevant anyway in this case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Note the use of the word MAY and not the use of the word WILL.

That's quite interesting. Does that actually mean that a cash TVM is an opportunity to pay even if it only takes coins?

Has that been tested in Court I wonder?

Re Scottish notes, if anyone would find this useful, you can always get English notes in Scotland by using the machines at HSBC branches. Scottish banks can only issue their own notes, and being an English bank HSBC doesn't have any to issue.

Raphael's Bank operated machines at airports and the likes are the same I think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now that surprises me. I had always believed that IoM bank notes are not accepted anywhere off Island. Coins, on the other hand, are the same size, shape and weight......!

Yes, I actually thought English money was accepted in IoM, but no IoM money (coin or note) was valid in England.

 

[sheff1]

You don't even have to muddy the waters with the Scottish notes for this one. The old "English" paper £5 notes are being withdrawn and will stop being accepted and handed out in about 6 weeks. Currently a lot of TVM's don't accept the new plastic £5 note and it doesn't look likely that they will be accepting them in 6 weeks time. So you end up with the situation of having valid means to pay but not being able to use it.

Will be interesting to see whether we get any threads on here about people being threatened with a 'fine' as a result.

 

[Antman]

From the National Rail site:

The following are accepted as methods of payments at National Rail stations and retail outlets. They also apply to paying on-train when no opportunity to purchase beforehand existed.
Self-service ticket machines at National Rail stations will accept a more limited range of payment.

Information shown might not apply to National Rail products purchased at independent rail licensed travel agents or from other third party retailers.

Cash
Any combination of notes and coins are accepted, as below.

Bank Notes of the British Isles

The following bank notes may be accepted:
Bank notes issued by the Bank of England and bearing a portrait of Her Majesty the Queen;
Sterling notes issued by Allied Irish Banks plc
Sterling notes issued by Bank of Ireland
Sterling notes issued by Northern Bank Ltd
Sterling notes issued by Ulster Bank Ltd
Bank notes issued by Bank of Scotland
Bank notes issued by Clydesdale Bank plc
Bank notes issued by Royal Bank of Scotland
Sterling bank notes issued by the Isle of Man Bank Ltd
Sterling bank notes issued by States of Guernsey
Sterling bank notes issued by States of Jersey

Nice to see they are up to date.

Northern Bank became Danske Bank in 2012.

Now those are fun notes to try and use in England.

 

[Merseysider]

Will be interesting to see whether we get any threads on here about people being threatened with a 'fine' as a result.

I'll test the waters in a few weeks after my trip to Scotland...

 

[AlterEgo]

For payment of a debt, but not in this circumstance. The retailer can refuse them the same as they can refuse Scottish notes.

That was my point - the discussion about legal tender is academic as it does not apply to the scenario in the OP.

 

[Haywain]

Clearly irrelevant anyway in this case.

Thank you for such valuable input to the discussion.

 

[bearhugger]

That's quite interesting. Does that actually mean that a cash TVM is an opportunity to pay even if it only takes coins?

Has that been tested in Court I wonder?

Re Scottish notes, if anyone would find this useful, you can always get English notes in Scotland by using the machines at HSBC branches. Scottish banks can only issue their own notes, and being an English bank HSBC doesn't have any to issue.

Raphael's Bank operated machines at airports and the likes are the same I think.

Doesn't HSBC stand for Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corporation? So we could get Hong Kong dollars or Shanghai renminbi?

The relatively few times i've been given scottish notes as part of my change in shops, occassionally I have asked for english notes (usually when i visit Berwick or Carlisle for the day) and they have been happy to give english notes instead, other times when I have used scottish notes in England there has been no issue.

 

[scrapy]

The ticket machine at Mills Hill only takes cards so if you are travelling from there you will be able to pay with any valid bank note at Victoria.

If you are travelling from another station with only a cash or card machine eg. Rochdale after the ticket office shuts then I would suggest trying the Scottish note first as it may be accepted (i was surprised when a car park payment machine in Warrington accepted one). If it is rejected I would suggest speaking to the guard on boarding and asking to buy a ticket. Failing this I don't think you would have a problem at Victoria (provided you go to the ticket barriers and attempt to buy a ticket, rather than leaving the station the by the Arena exits and don't attempt to short fare). STM are a lot better than they once were.