Hypothetical: discrimination?

[edwin_m]

Imagine a disabled person with a railcard and a non-disabled person with a railcard both boarding a peak time train without tickets. The station has an open ticket office and no penalty fare is in operation.

If the conductor is following rules then both of them would be sold an undiscounted Anytime ticket. Does this count as discrimination under the Equality Act, because the disabled person has been penalised by the amount of the Railcard discount but the non-disabled person has paid the same as if they had bought their ticket before boarding?

 

[Flamingo]

They are not being charged a different amount, but simply not being given a railcard discount. They are not automatically entitled to the discount because of their disability, but because they have a railcard. The scenario would be the same regardless of what railcard they had.

 

[bnm]

Some operators specifically state that Disabled Railcard holders can buy on board without penalty.

Others say that DSB Railcard holders can buy on board if their disability makes it difficult for them to purchase tickets at stations where facilities exist.

 

[Timster83]

It wouldn't automatically be discrimination just because the person holds a disabled person's railcard. Discrimination only occurs when the organisation does not make a "reasonable adjustment", in situations where this is necessary.

For example, if the railcard holder had a condition which caused them challenges whilst queuing (for example, a severe ASD condition), or if the ticket office was closed and a machine was operational and the disability prevented them from reaching the buttons on the machine, then they would be entitled to purchase from the full range of tickets on the train.

On the other hand, my brother (who has aspergers) is quite capable of queuing and so it would not be reasonable for him to bypass the normal ticket purchasing option.

 

[tsr]

I believe that at some TOCs, it is (or was) the case that passengers who board without purchasing a ticket (where facilities existed) may, on showing their Disabled Persons Railcard, still obtain the discount. However, I understand that the same TOCs will/would not allow it for any other Railcard.

I am not sure if that is still the case anywhere. I believe the discount may only have been applied to Anytime tickets, as would be required to be sold.

 

[LowLevel]

Discretion should be used for disabled railcard holders, visually impaired people and wheelchair users at a minimum with regards to buying on board - this is because not all station facilities are easily accessible/usable by people with disabilities (ie a person with very poor vision couldn't use a touch screen, soundless TVM or a wheelchair user may not be able to reach a ticket counter. I was trained to always offer the full range of fares if required.

Less firmly but still definitely advised as an option by my employer is to show discretion to the elderly or people who may be struggling with the language. Anything else is case by case.

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks for replies. It seems TOCs will take disability into account either for moral reasons or to avoid possible claims of discrimination.

 

[yorkie]

The Train Company wasn't specified in the OP, so the answers will vary ...

They are not being charged a different amount, but simply not being given a railcard discount. They are not automatically entitled to the discount because of their disability, but because they have a railcard.

They are on East Coast!

The scenario would be the same regardless of what railcard they had.

On FGW it would be the same, as you say, but on East Coast it would be exactly as the OP says.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am not sure if that is still the case anywhere.

It is.

I believe the discount may only have been applied to Anytime tickets, as would be required to be sold.

When the "appropriate" fare applies, is the cheapest available fare with Railcard discounts where applicable.

Where the "full" fare applies, that specifically excludes Railcard discounts.

 

[LowLevel]

See here for non railcard discounts for the disabled.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/44965.aspx

In practice I don't know of a train operator which doesn't contain the following clause or similar in their Disabled Person's Protection Policy:

'Where disabled customers are unable to purchase a ticket at the station before their journey, they may purchase on the train or at their destination without penalty'.

See section 5 of FGW's policy below as an example.

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk...istedTravel/DPPP/DPPP Customer DL aw (2).ashx

East Coast's revenue protection policy, below, also contains this protection for disabled customers:

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/customer-service/revenue-protection-policy/

 

[Emyr]

...show discretion to the elderly or people who may be struggling with the language. Anything else is case by case.

Ba dum tish.

 

[talltim]

Ba dum tish.

Did you misread it too (I thought language said luggage) or is there another joke I missed

 

[muz379]

It wouldn't automatically be discrimination just because the person holds a disabled person's railcard. Discrimination only occurs when the organisation does not make a "reasonable adjustment", in situations where this is necessary.

For example, if the railcard holder had a condition which caused them challenges whilst queuing (for example, a severe ASD condition), or if the ticket office was closed and a machine was operational and the disability prevented them from reaching the buttons on the machine, then they would be entitled to purchase from the full range of tickets on the train.

On the other hand, my brother (who has aspergers) is quite capable of queuing and so it would not be reasonable for him to bypass the normal ticket purchasing option.

This I believe is the best way to approach it , If it is difficult or impossible for the disabled person to use the ticket buying facilities on the station then the discount should be given on board .

 

[Flamingo]

The Train Company wasn't specified in the OP, so the answers will vary ...
They are on East Coast!

On FGW it would be the same, as you say, but on East Coast it would be exactly as the OP says.

On East Coast you don't need a disabled railcard to get the discount regardless of disability? (I'm aware of the special circumstances surrounding wheelchairs).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

At the first opportunity, a disabled person (or, if you prefer, a person with health conditions or impairments) can get a discount in one of three ways.

• They have a Disabled Person's Railcard.
  
• They are a wheelchair user and use their wheelchair throughout the journey (rather than taking up a train seat or standing).
  
• They are registered blind or partially sighted (and can prove it).

The last one only applies if the person is travelling with a companion (who also gets the discount), in both the first two a companion would get the discount, but are not required.

The question of what they are entitled to if they do not use an open ticket office is a little varied, partly by TOC (as some prefer 'positive discrimination', which apparently is perfectly legal), partly by the origin station (is it actually possible to use the ticket office? for example).

If I'm completely honest, I'm not sure I follow the last paragraph of the op. If the disabled person is not given the discount and the other person is given the discount then it would be discrimination. If neither are given the discount it would not be discrimination, unless the disabled person was not able to use the ticket office or any ticket machines because of their impairment.

Some TOCs will allow the Railcard to be used at all times because it does not leave the guard in the situation of having to decide if the disabled person could have used the ticketing facilities or not, and it means they avoid any discrimination cases being brought against them.

 

[Emyr]

Did you misread it too (I thought language said luggage) or is there another joke I missed

A "struggle with language" makes the second part punny.

Joke only works in text though.

 

[yorkie]

On East Coast you don't need a disabled railcard to get the discount regardless of disability? (I'm aware of the special circumstances surrounding wheelchairs).

If you don't have a disabled railcard, then as others have said, a discounted fare may still apply.

But the key difference is that a Disabled Railcard holder can be perfectly able to use a ticket machine or ticket office and can simply choose not to, and still obtain the discount on-board East Coast services, irrespective of what their disability is, and not be charged the full fare.

 

[Flamingo]

If you don't have a disabled railcard, then as others have said, a discounted fare may still apply.

But the key difference is that a Disabled Railcard holder can be perfectly able to use a ticket machine or ticket office and can simply choose not to, and still obtain the discount on-board East Coast services, irrespective of what their disability is, and not be charged the full fare.

Fair enough, I misunderstood your post!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Some operators specifically state that Disabled Railcard holders can buy on board without penalty.

Others say that DSB Railcard holders can buy on board if their disability makes it difficult for them to purchase tickets at stations where facilities exist.

Or if your a G4S Subcontracter working for Northern you wate for an easy target in the form of a blind man and fine him regardless, now happened to me twice!

 

[SussexMan]

Does this count as discrimination under the Equality Act, because the disabled person has been penalised by the amount of the Railcard discount but the non-disabled person has paid the same as if they had bought their ticket before boarding?

From a discrimination point of view, has the disabled person been treated "less favourably" which is what the legislation is concerned with? Sounds to me as though they have been treated the same.

 

[PermitToTravel]

as some prefer 'positive discrimination', which apparently is perfectly legal

That is correct:

(1) A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if, because of a protected characteristic, A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat others.
[...]
(3) If the protected characteristic is disability, and B is not a disabled person, A does not discriminate against B only because A treats or would treat disabled persons more favourably than A treats B.

 

[jon0844]

If people can get a discount without a railcard by simply being in a wheelchair on some TOCs, what's to stop someone just getting an old wheelchair and trying it on?

 

[Blindtraveler]

In a previous Job I had a customer who did this. We soon rumbled him. You need to be a good acter!

 

[muz379]

If people can get a discount without a railcard by simply being in a wheelchair on some TOCs, what's to stop someone just getting an old wheelchair and trying it on?

I guess the ramifications if they get rumbled . It would be seen as fraud surely .

 

[jon0844]

Surely it's fine to sit in a wheelchair even if you don't need one? The issue is only if you're sold a cheaper ticket, but what if you didn't realise?

I'm not suggesting many people would actually do this, although there have been youngsters getting hold of older electric wheelchairs for fun, but simply how you could do much about it. I mean, anyone of any age could need a wheelchair and I'm not sure how much acting you'd need to do.

Chances are you could simply be abrupt and say 'none of your business what's wrong with me' (and then be quite convincing!).

 

[PermitToTravel]

Isn't this all hypothetical? I don't think there are any discounts available for wheelchair users that can be obtained without a railcard.

 

[muz379]

Reminds me of the time a colleague of mine went up to a Man with a guide dog and asked him if he needed any assistance boarding the train . A couple of my other colleagues where smirking and laughing at first which I found a bit strange given that there is nothing funny about being blind . Afterwards they told me he was not actually blind he just trained the guide dogs .

Surely it's fine to sit in a wheelchair even if you don't need one? The issue is only if you're sold a cheaper ticket, but what if you didn't realise?

I'm not suggesting many people would actually do this, although there have been youngsters getting hold of older electric wheelchairs for fun, but simply how you could do much about it. I mean, anyone of any age could need a wheelchair and I'm not sure how much acting you'd need to do.

Chances are you could simply be abrupt and say 'none of your business what's wrong with me' (and then be quite convincing!).

I suppose there are degrees of needing a wheelchair as well . I remember reading somewhere that statistically a high proportion of regular wheelchair users can walk a small distance . but who are we to decide that just cos someone can walk 50m they dont get a discount .

Id certainly never challenge anyone in a wheelchair as to their disability ,it would be upsetting for them if they did have a disability and if it did turn out they where disabled it would be a PR disaster .

Same if someone presents a Disabled railcard and there appears to be nothing wrong with them , you would never question it just because its none of your business .

Unfortunately there will be some people out there who will play on that vulnerability we have .


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't this all hypothetical? I don't think there are any discounts available for wheelchair users that can be obtained without a railcard.

there are

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/44965.aspx

 

[jon0844]

Looks like the railway is about to see a huge increase in wheelchair users from tomorrow...!

 

[muz379]

Looks like the railway is about to see a huge increase in wheelchair users from tomorrow...!

I might buy shares in a wheelchair manufacturer

That being said the discounts are only off the anytime standard return or single meaning that cheaper fares could be obtained in some cases using an advance or a cheap day fare