Hypothetical Class 442 rebuild

[Helvellyn]

So, I've been in dreamland and have been pondering some developments with BR era traction. A number of Class 465s have received new Hitachi traction packages, and Angel Trains are rebuilding a Class 317/7 as a prototype with a new traction package. Also, with the Chiltern power-door rebuild of Mk 3As with new doors, and the FGW refurbishment of their HSTs (high quality whether you like or loathe the layout).

So, my thought is could the 24 Class 442s be rebuilt with an a.c. traction package, Chiltern Mk 3s style power doors and new interiors to provide a high-quality a.c. EMU that could replace the Class 90s & Mk 3s on the GEML.

The 442s are not suited to the Gatwick Express services, but are a good unit. With a rebuild they could find a new home and provide better capacity on the GEML (ten coaches available), while being able to operate as 5-car units on lighter loaded off-peak services. It would also eleviate the need to use 321s on the some peak Norwich workings.

Thoughts?

 

[150001]

I think they could be converted; they're in good condition and have a excellent interior. The max speed of the Class 90s is 110 mph, and the 442s can get to a 100, but actually set and holds the world speed record for a 3rd rail train with 108mph. I'm no expert on the GEML to Norwich but I reckon the speeds aren't past 100mph. The 442s are also a year or two younger than the Mk3s so that is a very slight improvement! I reckon that this would be possibly a good move and the Class 90s could then perhaps be available for the Great Western main line when it is electrified for use as freight trains. However another option would be to keep the 90s and mk3s and use the 442s to replace the 317s or 321s. The 321s could then be sent to Wales and used on the "soon" to be electrified Valley lines. The 321s aren't too comfortable on the long trips and the 442s would be a major set up. The only issue is money. Although I'm sure it could actually get funding as the government would love to hear it could free up stock for Wales!

 

[mbonwick]

There's a whole world of difference between an AC traction package and running off 25Kv OHLE though...

 

[starrymarkb]

Indeed, could the bodies cope with the extra weight of a transformer?

Also 442s are not the fastest thing to draw from the Third Rail - that was the 4-REP used in high speed testing for Eurostar which was Radar clocked at 117mph. With no independent validation it's wasn't a record

 

[150001]

I took that off Wiki; so that is why not to trust wiki! Thanks for the correction.

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed, could the bodies cope with the extra weight of a transformer?

The 442 is a bit of an odd EMU, because all the heavy stuff including both motor bogies is presently on the one coach, the middle one of 5. So you've really got four other Mk3 coaches, two of which happen to have cabs.

I reckon if they were to fit a modern traction package they'd probably spread it out around the rest of the train to spread the weight about, so the current motor coach might lose all the current control gear and the motor bogies to other coaches, and gain the transformer/converter?

 

[route:oxford]

The 442 is a bit of an odd EMU, because all the heavy stuff including both motor bogies is presently on the one coach, the middle one of 5. So you've really got four other Mk3 coaches, two of which happen to have cabs.

I reckon if they were to fit a modern traction package they'd probably spread it out around the rest of the train to spread the weight about, so the current motor coach might lose all the current control gear and the motor bogies to other coaches, and gain the transformer/converter?

Sometimes the cheapest way to do something is to do what sounds a little bit dearer on paper.

So brand new combined transformer and traction coach with a powerbus to the former traction coach - with a new traction package.

No need to worry about "jigs being scrapped years ago" - just take whichever electric unit is being built at the moment that would fall into the same loading gauge as a 442 coach and build it with compatible couplers and gangways.

 

[A0]

So, I've been in dreamland and have been pondering some developments with BR era traction. A number of Class 465s have received new Hitachi traction packages, and Angel Trains are rebuilding a Class 317/7 as a prototype with a new traction package. Also, with the Chiltern power-door rebuild of Mk 3As with new doors, and the FGW refurbishment of their HSTs (high quality whether you like or loathe the layout).

So, my thought is could the 24 Class 442s be rebuilt with an a.c. traction package, Chiltern Mk 3s style power doors and new interiors to provide a high-quality a.c. EMU that could replace the Class 90s & Mk 3s on the GEML.

The 442s are not suited to the Gatwick Express services, but are a good unit. With a rebuild they could find a new home and provide better capacity on the GEML (ten coaches available), while being able to operate as 5-car units on lighter loaded off-peak services. It would also eleviate the need to use 321s on the some peak Norwich workings.

Thoughts?

Probably not worth it - I'd have thought a new build, possibly a 7 car class 395s would make more sense.

Re-engineering the 442s so significantly, given their age, is probably uneconomic.

 

[Yew]

Probably not worth it - I'd have thought a new build, possibly a 7 car class 395s would make more sense.

Re-engineering the 442s so significantly, given their age, is probably uneconomic.

They are abuout halfway through their service life, If the refit was done right it could be a good financial option. maybe adding aurocouplers would be benificial too? And they already have power doors iirc?

 

[A0]

They are abuout halfway through their service life, If the refit was done right it could be a good financial option. maybe adding aurocouplers would be benificial too? And they already have power doors iirc?

Whereas brand new 395s would be at the start of their life - so unless rebuilding the 442s costs half of a new 395, it isn't worth it.

 

[David10]

Probably not worth it - I'd have thought a new build, possibly a 7 car class 395s would make more sense.

Not that 140mph stock will be required, a variation of the Siemens class 380 with end doors ala the 444s would be more suitable.

 

[D365]

Not worth it with the 442s - they'd need a massive rebuild if you wanted to fit trafos, plus the DDA work... Just order a load of 344s/444s if need be (including extras for South West); there's no particular demand for the 90s currently. This would further diversify the Anglia franchise fleet, however.

 

[RobShipway]

I think a better idea would be to ask Bombardier if the bodyshells of the class 442's could be fitted with Electrostar chassis and traction frames or ask them to build a class 442/444 version of the Electrostar train.

 

[MCR247]

Why on earth would you go up to bombardier and ask them to "build" anything?

Using the term build loosely

 

[RobShipway]

Why on earth would you go up to bombardier and ask them to "build" anything?

Using the term build loosely

Excuse me for asking but who was the class 170 in your profile picture built by? Do you not think that they are a good manufacturer to use?

My other reasoning is that the class 442's where put together at the Derby works that Bombardier owns, so they probably would have the original plans for them to work from, wouldn't they?

 

[150001]

Bombardier are fine; the 378s and 172s are excellent, and the 375, 379s, 170s and others have done excellent service. The design is attractive and lasts a long time as we've found out with the 150s from fore runner BREL. The S stock are much better than any other LUL stock in comfort terms (nice and cool). I'd order the Aventra any day and keep Derby in work. My only moan is that some of the LM 172 light fittings are rather cheap covering which vibrate quietly at low gear changes. Other than that no moaning from me.

 

[sprinterguy]

Bombardier are fine; the 378s and 172s are excellent, and the 375, 379s, 170s and others have done excellent service. The design is attractive and lasts a long time as we've found out with the 150s from fore runner BREL. The S stock are much better than any other LUL stock in comfort terms (nice and cool).

I wouldn’t say that there is much continuity between what BREL were doing in the eighties and what Bombardier are doing now in terms of product quality and design, even if they are using one of the same manufacturing facilities as their predecessor. Completely different company culture and structure I should think. There is an obvious design lineage between the Network Turbos and the Turbostars, but the Network Turbos weren’t even built at Derby, but at BRELs’ other plant at York.

I am inclined to concur with your other points though.