Hypothetical car parking query

[fairysdad]

Picture the scene.

It is a pleasant summer's day, and a person decides to take a rail trip somewhere. They work out what trains they will catch, and their return train is due back at their local station at 1746. They drive to their local station, park up, and pay the pay-and-display fee which allows them to park there until 1800. So far, so good. Even if they have had to pay more to park than their ticket to travel cost.

But, oh no! There's a problem on the lines! For some reason, possibly a cable theft or a trespasser (maybe worse), their train is delayed and cancelled, and they have to catch another train, and they end up back at their local station on the next train that gets in at 1846.

Still, not to worry: it was a pleasant day out, and although irritating, they know that they can claim delay repay on their train ticket. They walk through their station car park towards their car only to see a bright yellow plastic envelope stuck on their windscreen. They have been charged £60 for overstaying their pay-and-display time (£30 if paid within 14 days).

The query is whether they would have any recourse on this parking ticket. Now, I realise that there will likely be different options depending on the car park itself; a council-run car park will, for instance, issue an actual fine whereas a private car park (such as most run by, or on behalf of, TOCs) won't. In my experience, the council is more likely to be sympathetic to the plight of the driver, but as the parking violation would be through no cause of the driver, would the TOC be able to overturn the ruling in a car park run on their behalf by a third party? (Supermarkets don't seem to have that ability!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never saw a station do pay and display any more granularly than whole days.


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[anme]

(Ignoring post #2 which may invalidate the first part of my answer) If it was a station car park run by the railway company, I would expect them to be sympathetic. If the car park was not affiliated with the railway, I hope they would fine/charge the driver to the full extent possible - it's not their problem that the train was late.

 

[Agent_c]

Surely this is part of the reason why delay repay exists? To compensate for the extra hassle

 

[Marton]

Never saw a station do pay and display any more granularly than whole days.


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Darlington does an hour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely this is part of the reason why delay repay exists? To compensate for the extra hassle

Surely not. It's because of a breach of contract. The consequences should be an addition.

 

[Agent_c]

Darlington does an hour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




Surely not. It's because of a breach of contract. The consequences should be an addition.

The contract is to get you from X to Y. The Contract hasn't been breached, just performance delayed, and the delay is almost certainly a case of force majeure.

The compensation is agreed as a term of the contract, its not a right given because of a "breach".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Darlington does an hour.

OK, I concede I have seen short-term pay and display for pickup/drop off, though I don't feel this is to be encouraged (not of course that airports are not fond of it). But one hour is not enough to make almost any journey and return again.

What I have certainly never seen is a railway car park offering 4 hours' parking, or another similar time period during which a journey could sensibly be made.

Council car parks near stations may well do, of course - but consequential loss is not the railway's problem - if you have an issue with that it is for you to insure against it.

I have seen railway parking where it expires at midnight, where the last train being a bit late could breach it - but as I haven't yet seen a camera enforced railway car park, in practice nothing will happen because the enforcement van won't drive around at 0100.

 

[tony_mac]

would the TOC be able to overturn the ruling in a car park run on their behalf by a third party? (Supermarkets don't seem to have that ability!)

I think you shouldn't believe what the supermarkets tell you!

 

[Chew Chew]

I think you shouldn't believe what the supermarkets tell you!

Indeed.

For a while I did HR and admin for a company on a retail park.

On a Saturday when the local football team were at home parking was limited to 90 minutes and we'd often get customers phoning us to complain about the PCN they'd received. Once I'd validated they'd been in my store I'd send the parking company, Parking Eye in this instance, an email and they'd rescind the charge.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed.

For a while I did HR and admin for a company on a retail park.

On a Saturday when the local football team were at home parking was limited to 90 minutes and we'd often get customers phoning us to complain about the PCN they'd received. Once I'd validated they'd been in my store I'd send the parking company, Parking Eye in this instance, an email and they'd rescind the charge.

Or do what I did, and take Parking Eye to tribunal, as in the eyes of the law it is not correct to levy a PCN on a private car park on private land where there is normally no charge for the car park.

(I won, of course).

 

[island]

Never saw a station do pay and display any more granularly than whole days.

QFT. /thread

 

[tony_mac]

QFT. /thread

Perhaps it would be helpful to try and write a reply so that everyone can understand it?

 

[Master29]

Most of the station Car parks in the South West are managed by ATOC I think and they never seem to bother going after people. In fact I don`t know of a single case...but could be wrong of course.

Council run Car Parks may be slightly more sympathetic but if they do choose to pursue you they will. I usually ignore Private Parking firms though.

 

[najaB]

QFT. /thread

Perhaps it would be helpful to try and write a reply so that everyone can understand it?

Translation: I agree completely with what you said, so as far as I'm concerned the discussion is over.

 

[crehld]

Condition 42(c) of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage provides train companies a get out clause in cases such as this:

This Condition 42 sets out the entire liability of the relevant Train Companies in relation to delays, cancellations and poor service. Except as shown in this Condition 42, the Train Companies do not accept liability for any loss (including consequential loss) caused by the delay and/or cancellation of any train. However, they will consider additional claims in exceptional circumstances.

That said I've always claimed for my taxi fee home when a delay has caused me to miss the last bus home, and in the majority of cases it's been paid.

 

[87 027]

@Bald Rick That's interesting, I thought Beavis v Parking Eye upheld the legitimacy of such charges (overstayed time limit in free car park). Might I ask the specific reasons for your success - by PM if you prefer?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see why they would not be legitimate - fines aside, a great many pay and display car parks allow one hour for free but charge thereafter.

 

[87 027]

Indeed, see for example http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/le...ses-supreme-court-appeal-against-parking-eye/



The article is a bit long to quote in full but its overall conclusion is that “the Law Lords have ruled that the basic principles of excess charges for exceeding a prescribed parking term are fair, reasonable and enforceable.”



(Note that this applies to private land not otherwise covered by byelaws.)

 

[rs101]

Without wanting to drag this further off topic, the Beavis case should only be considered relevant in very few similar cases (the words of the judges involved) as the parking management company paid a monthly fee to the landowner for the right to issue tickets on the site, something very unusual in private parking contracts. In most, they're either cost neutral or financially beneficial to the land owner ( they will sometimes receive a % of any tickets paid).

 

[Deerfold]

I always found it odd that Hitchin station car park tickets expired at midnight when the last train arrived around 2am. I've no idea if anyone was ever checking tickets at that time but I did wonder what would happen if they were.

 

[PeterC]

Used to be the same at Chalfont and Latimer. Now changed to some time in the early hours well after the last train. It was a technicalilty that was sensibly ignored before but with ANPR based charging on the way what they say has to match what they mean.

 

[silverfoxcc]

OP,
register with pepipoo.com and put your enquiry up there for them to look at. they are pretty savvy with TOC and relevant land problems, Oh and dont put anything down that indicates tyou are the driver...it islways the driver did this, or the driver did that... Dont contqct anyone until you have seen what they have to say

 

[Deerfold]

OP,
register with pepipoo.com and put your enquiry up there for them to look at. they are pretty savvy with TOC and relevant land problems, Oh and dont put anything down that indicates tyou are the driver...it islways the driver did this, or the driver did that... Dont contqct anyone until you have seen what they have to say

My understanding is that the question is hypothetical, so it won't be possible to incriminate anyone.

 

[fairysdad]

OP,
register with pepipoo.com and put your enquiry up there for them to look at. they are pretty savvy with TOC and relevant land problems, Oh and dont put anything down that indicates tyou are the driver...it islways the driver did this, or the driver did that... Dont contqct anyone until you have seen what they have to say

My understanding is that the question is hypothetical, so it won't be possible to incriminate anyone.

Yep - it's completely hypothetical; my nearest station has free parking, and my second most commonly used station has my grandparent's driveway within walking distance! (Plus, the car I usually use isn't registered under my name!)

It does seem, however, that the general response is that you wouldn't have to pay. Not that the fine/charge is invalid, but I am fairly certain myself that if it's a bona fide fine from a council-run car park then the charge would be dismissed on appeal, while in the event of a car park run privately on behalf of a TOC would - likely - be able to stop the charge being progressed, once again on appeal.

The key there being the appeals process. I'm generally against the idea of ignoring communication from private firms, although I understand why it is usually the answer given. Having only ever once got a private car park ticket, and on that occasion I had documentary proof as to why I didn't pay (payment was only by telephone and the code given on the sign wasn't recognised by the system; I had a photo of the sign and video of me attempting to pay) (wasn't at a railway station either) it's not something I've ever had to deal with myself. I will usually pay the correct pay-and-display charges at the time.

The thing about Condition 42c is interesting though. To my eyes, I would read that as being that the TOC won't pay for any charges gained. If I were parked in a proper railway station car park, I would hope - and after reading this thread, expect - the TOC to step in and tell the parking company to let me off. Thus, no charges will be paid at all by any party.

However, if I was parked in a private car park near a station, but not run by (or on behalf of) a TOC, then I wouldn't expect the TOC to pay the charge, nor for them to have the authority to tell the parking company, or local authority, to cancel the charge. I might, however, appeal against the charge, and ask the TOC to back up my appeal by providing me with evidence that my train was delayed/cancelled. (Aside from the recent thread regarding Southern(!), I would expect that a TOC could provide a letter/email saying that their train was late. Or at the least, a print-off from Real Time Trains or something!)

Never saw a station do pay and display any more granularly than whole days.

I have seen a few stations that do do pay-and-display at different durations. I do concede, however, that there will be station car parks that only have day-long intervals, and most station car parks that I have seen have durations that work upwards towards whole days, eg, 30 minutes / 1 hour / 4 hours / 12 hours / 24 hours / 7 days whereas council-run car parks or privately-run shopper car parks will have £x/hour charges instead.

Some stations, for instance Exeter St Davids, has different charges and duration intervals depending on which car park you use - something that annoyed a friend a while ago when I parked in the cheaper car park the other side of the road that crosses at Red Cow Crossing whereas he parked in the expensive one on the station forecourt!

(I should perhaps point out at this point that when I have referred to 'the TOC', I'm either referring to the one that runs the station (which could be Network Rail) or the one that I was travelling with. Hopefully context will tell you which one is which!)

 

[34D]

Just to emphasise that parking on railway land is backed up by railway byelaws and the magistrates court so NOT relevant to the parking eye/Barry Beavis supreme Court matter.

 

[Stigy]

Just to emphasise that parking on railway land is backed up by railway byelaws and the magistrates court so NOT relevant to the parking eye/Barry Beavis supreme Court matter.

It's is backed by Railway Byelaws, but in most cases is subcontracted as far as enforcement goes, to the likes of CP Plus etc. In which case the Byelaws are rarely used to enforce parking infringements.

Regarding the parking finishing at midnight which is before the last train, this is generally because that's the only way the system is able to print a daily ticket. It's accepted that a ticket is valid until the last train has gone. I've never seen a parking attendant work past 1800hrs at a Railway station.

 

[deltic]

It does seem, however, that the general response is that you wouldn't have to pay. Not that the fine/charge is invalid, but I am fairly certain myself that if it's a bona fide fine from a council-run car park then the charge would be dismissed on appeal, while in the event of a car park run privately on behalf of a TOC would - likely - be able to stop the charge being progressed, once again on appeal.

T

I would be surprised if a council run car park did not enforce the penalty unless it was a major incident that had affected a number of people.

Just looking at airport car parking web sites and the standard response there is

"Question
What do I do if my flight into Bristol Airport is delayed and I go over my pre-booked parking period?

Answer
If your flight is delayed you can simply pay for any additional parking time at our Bristol Airport car parks on your return."

The same words appear for Manchester Airport, while a site on flight compensation states

"If your flight back to the UK is cancelled or delayed and your car is in an airport car park, you are likely to be charged for the excess parking period at the normal “gate rate” so unfortunately you will not get the benefit of any special deals.

After the Icelandic volcanic disruption a few years ago many car park operators waived the extra fee so long as passengers were able to provide evidence of the date on which they should have arrived home. This, however, was a one-off and unlikely to be repeated by car park operators. Your airline is not likely to pay your extra parking costs, given that the compensation under the Denied Boarding Regulations is designed to cover such consequential costs."

 

[87 027]

I was stranded abroad during the 2010 ash cloud and Gatwick Airport waived the entire parking fee, not just the additional days. But as you say, that is a one-off.



Worth noting that the ban on wheel clamping in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 only applies to private land not covered by a byelaw. So in theory you can still be clamped or towed away in a station, airport or council-run car park.

 

[Stigy]

I was stranded abroad during the 2010 ash cloud and Gatwick Airport waived the entire parking fee, not just the additional days. But as you say, that is a one-off.



Worth noting that the ban on wheel clamping in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 only applies to private land not covered by a byelaw. So in theory you can still be clamped or towed away in a station, airport or council-run car park.

Also relevant to the railway of course, as it's written in to the Railway Byelaws that you may be clamped.

Wasn't sure about airports though.....is it similar in this area regarding Byelaws?

Edit: just noticed you already mentioned the railway.....

 

[vrbarreto]

It's is backed by Railway Byelaws, but in most cases is subcontracted as far as enforcement goes, to the likes of CP Plus etc. In which case the Byelaws are rarely used to enforce parking infringements.

Regarding the parking finishing at midnight which is before the last train, this is generally because that's the only way the system is able to print a daily ticket. It's accepted that a ticket is valid until the last train has gone. I've never seen a parking attendant work past 1800hrs at a Railway station.

The railway bye-laws and Private Parking Companies is a whole can of worms. There's quite a few posts on Pepipoo regarding these.. Lots to do with the POFA Act and who has the authority to take someone to court over an unpaid parking ticket.. It's a lot to do with whether it is relevant land, etc.. Using railway byelaws I understand only the owner of the land can take the driver/keeper to court as apparently violating a byelaw is a criminal offence and PPC's cannot try and extract money to make a criminal offence 'go away'.

Oh Yeah, Beavis was a very specific case and relevant to that car park only as their Lordships made clear. The Private parking companies will try and say that it justifies anything they want to do but it doesn't... It just means that you can't use Genuine pr-estimation of Loss as an argument.. Many PPC's have notices which are not POFA compliant, have inadequate signage, have no relevant interest in the land, etc....

Eminently beatable (unless they are IPC which is a kangaroo court) and it costs them £27 to lose at POPLA if they aere a member of the BPA.