Hypothetical advance ticket split

[Halsebee]

I know the rules governing advance tickets, that stopping or starting short is not allowed, and can incur a fine/penalty fare or buying a new full priced ticket or some such consequence. All fair enough.
My thought is about a journey from place A to place D via places B and C.
If there were very cheap advance tickets A-C and B-D on the same train, would using a combination be allowable? This would effectively mean having two perfectly valid tickets for the same train between B-C, and completing both journeys in full, albeit with both tickets being valid ftom B-C.
This is at least theoretically possible from some tickets I have seen, and wouldn't be found by journey planners, I don't think?

 

[gray1404]

In my view that would be totally fine. I cannot see anything prohibiting it. I would however not draw attention to it.and when your ticket is checked only show one ticket if possible for that point in the journey.

 

[Mike395]

I think, whilst in pragmatic terms you probably wouldn't have an issue most of the time, I suspect this is technically problematic - and I wouldn't be putting both tickets through in the event of any potential DR claim as it'll raise eyebrows. You are, by definition, starting or finishing short on one of the Advances, specifically for financial gain, which isn't permitted - I don't think you could reasonably consider the two tickets in this case to be forming one journey.

 

[Watershed]

I don't think there is anything that says you can only be using one ticket at a time. So you aren't stopping short or starting late on either ticket - you are simply using both tickets whilst between B and C.

As @Mike395 alludes to, it doesn't constitute a valid through journey because the last station where A-C is valid (C) isn't the same as the first station where B-D is valid (B). NRCoT 14.2 requires this to be the case for it to count as a through journey.

However, that simply means you can't claim Delay Repay based on the combined value of the ticket, and that you aren't entitled to protection in the event of disruption based on your whole journey (A-D). It doesn't mean that there is a penalty for combining the tickets that way.

 

[redreni]

14.2 doesn't say the tickets can't have overlapping validity. It just says that together they must cover the journey made.

14.3 does preclude overlapping validity (though this doesn't seem to be enforced), but that's only relevant for non-stop splits where one of the tickets is a season or daily zonal ticket.

If you're splitting under 14.2 then I can't personally see what would be wrong with the hypothetical passenger doing what the OP hypothetically proposes. They would be well advised not to rub the TOC's noses in it, though, as it would be perceived as a loophole.

 

[Ziggiesden]

I know the rules governing advance tickets, that stopping or starting short is not allowed, and can incur a fine/penalty fare or buying a new full priced ticket or some such consequence. All fair enough.
My thought is about a journey from place A to place D via places B and C.
If there were very cheap advance tickets A-C and B-D on the same train, would using a combination be allowable? This would effectively mean having two perfectly valid tickets for the same train between B-C, and completing both journeys in full, albeit with both tickets being valid ftom B-C.
This is at least theoretically possible from some tickets I have seen, and wouldn't be found by journey planners, I don't think?

Under the Advance rules break of journey is not permitted. Break of Journey includes joining at an intermediate point.

Since you, theoretically, are already on the train in this scenario then you are exercising your right to utilise a Combination of Tickets for a journey under NRCoT 14 as long as the train calls at the point where you change from one ticket to another:

“14.2 Unless Condition 14.1 applies, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use Call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.”

Remember that Call means to both set down and pick up Passengers.

I would say this is perfectly legal as you are buying the cheapest combination of tickets that are available for your journey which is covered in this scenario.

I would claim Delay Repay in the event of a delay too with this scenario. Can’t see anything that says this is not permitted.

Quite an interesting one this.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think there's anything to prevent being doubly valid for a section of the route.

 

[redreni]

Not to be picky, but even if this were to be perceived (wrongly in my humble opinion) as starting or finishing short when not permitted, the only adverse consequence should be an excess to a ticket that permits break of journey for one of the tickets (NRCoT 16.3), not a penalty fare or being required to buy an entirely new ticket.

 

[sheff1]

You are, by definition, starting or finishing short on one of the Advances

Where is it defined that using two tickets for travel between B & C is starting or finishing short ?

 

[RyanOPlasty]

Where is it defined that using two tickets for travel between B & C is starting or finishing short ?

14.2 states that there is a station where you transfer from one ticket to the other. This implies that you are not using both simultaneously and therefore will either stop or start short on one of the tickets.

“14.2 Unless Condition 14.1 applies, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use Call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.”

 

[LUL1970]

Not sure if this is a thing but could this be considered a double discount?

 

[redreni]

14.2 states that there is a station where you transfer from one ticket to the other. This implies that you are not using both simultaneously and therefore will either stop or start short on one of the tickets.

Station(s), rather than a station.

Does it unambiguously preclude the situation where you are using ticket number 1 between stations A and B, tickets numbers 1 and 2 between stations B and C, and ticket number 2 between stations C and D? In such a case, would the station(s) where you change from one ticket to the other not be stations B and C (since it's a two-stage transition)?

In which case, if the train Calls at B and C, what's the problem?

 

[Ziggiesden]

14.2 states that there is a station where you transfer from one ticket to the other. This implies that you are not using both simultaneously and therefore will either stop or start short on one of the tickets.

Doesn't matter what anyone here thinks it implies. It is what the condition actually states and how the courts would subsequently rule considering the ethos of "DfT works with consumer experts and the rail industry to help passengers choose the best deal on fares":

DfT works with consumer experts and the rail industry to help passengers choose the best deal on fares

DfT and Which? co-host forum to agree action on ‘too complex’ ticketing systems.

www.gov.uk

You must also consider how hard this would be to actually detect unless the Passenger volunteers the information just to see how the action is viewed.

I'd be surprised if it would ever even be noticed.

Another point: back in the day you had to pay the appropriate fare for your journey. The advent of "Split Ticketing" & "Best Deal" has superseeded that requirement and the old rule no longer exists.

If we look at the Adance Ticket Regulations:

4. When and where the ticket can be used​

1. Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).
   
   
2. Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s)
   
   
3. Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket.
   
   
4. If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary
   
   
5. If the route is prefixed with a +, the ticket includes the cost of travelling across London on London Underground, Docklands Light Railway or Thameslink services as appropriate to the journey

Break of Journey was covered earlier but lets look at the specific clause in the Advance Regulations:

6. Break of journey​

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

Nope, doesn't catch the scenario as you have not physically left any station en route, which constitutes this condition.

Consumer Protections legislation now comes to the mix. I don't see anyone challenging it - I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

These Regulations can be superseded by any TOC. As an example, in ScotRail you can use Kids for a Quid with Advance on our 17:38 to Aberdeen. However, you cannot on the 18:40 to Aberdeen (both from Haymarket at these times) as it specifically excluded in the LNER Advance Terms and Conditions:

Advance tickets | LNER

Cheaper tickets, same great journey. Book further in advance on the LNER website and app than anywhere else.

www.lner.co.uk

"7. Railcard discounts can be used on Advance fares but not in conjunction with any other offers, unless specifically stated."

You can't use it at all on CrossCountry, just to let everyone know, who is reading this.

 

[david1212]

I wonder what would happen if RPI inspected your ticket after C or at the gateline of D?

Before C no issue as you simply show the A>C ticket. If there are barriers at A the scan would show you passed through them.
After C / at D you show the B>D ticket. If B has barriers your ticket would not show that you passed through them so questions how you entered the network. You then show the A>C ticket explaining you entered at A, confirmed by a scan. If RPI was a 'jobsworth' is there any clause with a penalty that they could invoke?

 

[island]

Breaking a journey involves leaving the station. If you do not leave the station, you cannot have broken your journey.

You are allowed to pay twice for one journey.

As others mention, you may run into issues if claiming DelayRepay, but that is all.

 

[yorkie]

This has cropped up many times before:

Google Search

Some example threads from the above search include:

overlapping advance tickets

What do people think of travelling with overlapping advance tickets - from Coventry - Carlisle - the cheapest tickets being Coventry - Preston advance & Crewe - Carlisle advance. (The tickets being on the same train). The only problem I can see is not being able to sit in two seats at the same...

www.railforums.co.uk

Overlapping tickets: Advance to Anytime

Let’s say I want to travel from Exeter to Slough for a 10am meeting. Before setting off I buy a cheap Advance fare from Exeter to Paddington and an Anytime ticket from Reading to Slough, both in paper format. All much cheaper than an Anytime ticket for Exeter to Slough. I change trains at...

www.railforums.co.uk

Is this allowed? Two Advance tickets overlapping on same journey

I am going on a little break to Berwick-upon-Tweed with a friend in September. Because she lives in London, I was able to buy her return ticket some time ago with the 24-weeks Advances. She said that Standard Class would be fine, so I booked her a seat in coach B. (I am a bit more au fait...

www.railforums.co.uk

Overlapping Advance tickets OK?

I'm guessing the answer is yes, but just wondering if it's OK to hold two overlapping Advance tickets, on the same train. For example Newcastle - Darlington, and Durham - King's Cross (the train in question stops at both).

www.railforums.co.uk

The consensus was - and I believe remains to this day - that it's fine to do this; you aren't actually starting or finishing your journey short, and there is no harm in holding two valid tickets simultaneously.

 

[sheff1]

14.2 states that there is a station where you transfer from one ticket to the other. This implies that you are not using both simultaneously and therefore will either stop or start short on one of the tickets.

Implication is not definition.

I was hoping the poster stating there was a definition would tell us where that definition could be found. Subsequent posts strongly suggest there is no such definition, but maybe there is still the possibilty of a link being provided.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Breaking a journey involves leaving the station. If you do not leave the station, you cannot have broken your journey.

This was in writing but no longer is.

 

[Starmill]

This was in writing but no longer is.

Indeed. It's implied today, and not defined.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2025 ==

Not sure if this is a thing but could this be considered a double discount?

I don't think that's an expression I've ever heard used before to be honest. What sort of situation might it apply in?

 

[LUL1970]

I was accused of this when using my WM concession card from Birmingham to Coventry and staff discount from Coventry to Euston. Utter nonsense of course as it was 2 separate parts of the journey but I got the impression that there could theoretically be a situation whereby you could try to get an extra discount on the same part of a journey which would not be allowed.

 

[Starmill]

I was accused of this when using my WM concession card from Birmingham to Coventry and staff discount from Coventry to Euston. Utter nonsense of course as it was 2 separate parts of the journey but I got the impression that there could theoretically be a situation whereby you could try to get an extra discount on the same part of a journey which would not be allowed.

I suspect that the person who told you that just made it up to be honest.