Hydrogen bus deployment challenges

[Edvid]

It's been noted on this forum quite a few times now, so I figured it merited its own thread now that Route One have published an article on the topic.

Fuel supply brings challenges for more hydrogen bus deployment

Withdrawal by NatEx from more hydrogen buses comes amid discussion on the fuel's use case within coach and bus applications

www.route-one.net

Fuel supply brings challenges for more hydrogen bus deployment​

Withdrawal by NatEx from more hydrogen buses comes amid discussion on use case in coach and bus


Alex Crawford
Published May 13, 2024


There have been milestone moments for hydrogen in recent years, with global demand reaching a record high (within limited applications) in 2022 and a joint declaration at COP28 in 2023 calling for hydrogen to be prioritised as a replacement for fossil fuels.

But despite expectations that hydrogen production and use will both grow in 2024, ING Research noted that high prices of green hydrogen production, especially in Europe, were acting as a barrier for demand, and says those costs are expected to rise further still. Research in February revealed that the indicative cost of unsubsidised hydrogen production in Europe stands at €5.50/ kg, versus €1.60kg for grey hydrogen, and that does not include transportation and storage costs, which can also be considerable.

Against this backdrop, the Journal of Energy Storage published a study on 25 November 2023 by Eurac into the real-world operation of 16 hydrogen fuel cell-electric and five battery-electric buses in Italy and found that the former buses were, on average, 2.3 times more expensive to run per kilometre than battery-electric equivalents, with hydrogen fuel cell-electric buses costing €1.27/km against the €0.55/km for battery-electric buses.

Closer to home, hydrogen in bus use hit a further stumbling block when in April National Express (NatEx) announced in its results for the year ended 31 December 2023 that it had made the decision to move away from its hydrogen element of the Zero Emission Bus Regional Areas (ZEBRA) scheme. Could this mean the fuel source’s future within bus is in doubt?

Local authorities reticent​

routeone is aware of hydrogen use in bus fleets in five key areas in Great Britain. They are operated by First Bus in Aberdeen, by Metroline in London, by Stagecoach and Arriva in Liverpool with the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority, by Birmingham City Council (BCC) and NatEx in Walsall, and by Go-Ahead subsidiary Metrobus in Crawley. Only the latter two of these partnerships offered to comment.

At Go-Ahead Group’s operator Metrobus, hydrogen is being used to power a fleet of 20 zero-emission buses, funded through the government’s former Ultra-Low Emission Bus Scheme (ULEBS), EU JIVE 2 Fund and Gatwick Airport.

The buses operate across routes in the Gatwick Airport, Crawley and Horley areas. An additional 34 buses will be arriving in the next 12 months after being built at Northern Ireland manufacturer Wrightbus and have been funded by Surrey County Council. The operator says the existing fleet has been welcomed by customers and stakeholders, operating efficiently and within the range they are expected to.

Hydrogen buses were selected to serve the routes across Sussex, Surrey, and Kent where they are suited to longer routes with extensive operating hours, including several 24-hour routes. Joint funding remains key owing to the high cost of hydrogen vehicles relative to diesel. Metrobus has worked with national government, three county councils and Gatwick Airport to deliver the transition.

Go-Ahead says lifespan of a hydrogen bus is expected to be the same as battery-electric fleet as they require replacement of fuel cell and battery at half-life and can last up to 15 years. It notes that batteries are smaller, therefore cheaper, than electric bus batteries.

Fuel supply seems to hinder UK ops​

In the Department for Transport’s (DfT’s) latest ZEBRA scheme funding announcement, Metrobus was successful in being awarded funding for a further 43 hydrogen buses, working in partnership with West Sussex County Council, with £11.6m being funded by capital investment from Go-Ahead Group. That fleet will operate across West Sussex.

However, out of the 20 hydrogen buses at the Metrobus depot, only seven or eight are able to run daily. At present, a missing regulatory assessment prevents Metrobus from fuelling all 20 buses using the hydrogen refuelling station that is in place at the depot. This means that without hazardous substance consent, Metrobus is not able to scale up and store sufficient hydrogen on site to expand its
hydrogen fleet.

The operator highlights a need to update planning regulations accordingly so that all hydrogen infrastructure can be effectively approved and implemented. It says the planning process in other European countries, such as Germany and the Netherlands but also the USA, is further advanced putting the UK at a competitive disadvantage. The issue has been recognised by the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (DESNZ) as published in Hydrogen Projects: Planning barriers and solutions research findings, during December 2023.

“Effective planning regulations are critical in order to achieve the UK’s net zero-target. It’s important to emphasise that this is an administrative rather than a safety-related issue. Hydrogen is safe when handled in line with regulations and best practice. The issue needs to be addressed urgently so that companies like Go-Ahead Group can run their full fleet,” a spokesperson says.

Metrobus is actively working with its supplier Air Products to engage with government at all levels and the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) to secure a permanent agreement that will enable the transition to all 97 buses operating without issue as they are manufactured and deployed over the coming years.

Go-Ahead says DfT and the Department for Business, Energy, and Industrial Strategy both support hydrogen being used as a fuel, and consider it to be an essential part of the transition to net-zero. But HSE needs to be appropriately resourced to successfully assess evolving uses of hydrogen.

It further warns that to ensure that the opportunity to create a world-leading hydrogen depot is not lost, HSE must work in partnership with government to identify areas where it needs support. “This would enable the full benefits of the hydrogen fleet in Crawley to be realised and unlock future hydrogen fleets across the UK,” it adds.

Use case makes most sense when long-distance?​

When NatEx put its fleet of Wrightbus Streetdeck Hydroliners into service in 2021, they were the only hydrogen fuel-cell electric buses operating in England outside London and were part of an initial plan to put a fleet of 144 hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicles on the road. That would have formed one of the largest fleets of its kind in Europe.

That ambition ended in April with the announcement that NatEx would be moving away from further hydrogen buses via ZEBRA entirely, following a commercial review and insight gained from the initial trial. Similar to Go-Ahead, a key challenge as revealed to routeone was with “an un unreliable fuel supply”.

In its trading statement NatEx says hydrogen “remains viable for longer distance coach operations in the future”, predicting a total cost of ownership no worse than at parity with diesel (albeit requiring government subsidies on capital cost and/or fuel) and that this will be further evaluated as the technology evolves.

The West Midlands Combined Authority, which launched the vehicles in partnership with BCC and NatEx, did not offer to comment. However, a spokesperson for the operator says: “We are committed to decarbonising our bus fleet in the West Midlands by 2030. We have had a small trial of hydrogen buses in the West Midlands, and while the buses have been great, the fuel supply has not been reliable.

“We know our passengers value reliability above everything else. Given what we’ve learnt from this small trial, we made the decision to withdraw from the hydrogen element of the ZEBRA scheme. We are in discussions with Transport for West Midlands and DfT about next steps.

“The good news is that we are seeing even greater performance than we anticipated from our electric fleet, and we are continuing to invest at pace in new electric vehicles which will mean cleaner air for the people of the West Midlands.”

 

[Edvid]

Findings from the JIVE / JIVE2 projects (through which hydrogen buses in Aberdeen, Birmingham, Crawley and London were procured) were published in June 2024.

Executive summary quoted below.

Introduction
The JIVE programme is Europe’s flagship fuel cell bus demonstration initiative. Together, the JIVE and JIVE 2 projects are supporting the deployment of nearly 300 fuel cell buses in 16 sites across six countries. JIVE began in 2017 and concluded at the end of June 2024, with JIVE 2 beginning in 2018 and expected to complete in the summer of 2025. The JIVE projects were designed to demonstrate hydrogen buses and refuelling infrastructure at a scale never previously attempted in Europe, and to prepare the market for larger uptake in the 2020s. In addition to the deployment and operational activities, JIVE supports tasks relating to data analysis, capturing lessons learned and best practice, and dissemination of results to ensure that the impact of the project is maximised. This report summarises the results of a task focused on assessing the performance of the buses deployed in four UK sites under the JIVE and JIVE 2 projects. The work involved input from each of the city representatives and bus operators of the four sites: Aberdeen, Birmingham, Crawley, and London.

Operational experience
As of May 2024, a total of 85 fuel cell buses had been deployed in the UK under the JIVE programme, with a further 34 vehicles due to be delivered by the end of the year. All vehicles are supplied by Wrightbus. Each site has a different approach to sourcing hydrogen, including on-site production using existing assets (Aberdeen), new on-site production at a publicly accessible hydrogen refuelling station (HRS) (Birmingham), delivered gaseous hydrogen for depot-based refuelling (London), and delivered liquid hydrogen for depot-based refuelling (Crawley). The vehicles have performed well in terms of range and fuel efficiency. However, all sites have struggled to achieve consistent, reliable operation of the vehicles and infrastructure over extended periods. There are multiple reasons, many unrelated to the buses. Several sites have experienced issues in securing fuel supplies, despite having long-term fuel supply agreements. The number of sources and suppliers of high-purity, mobility-grade hydrogen in the UK is currently limited, which has led to constraints in fuel supplies available when primary supplies have been interrupted. This is expected to change in the coming years, with the installation of new electrolytic production facilities and several companies investing in additional hydrogen storage and distribution infrastructure.

Despite the challenges faced, the cities and operators involved in the UK deployments recognise the potential for hydrogen in decarbonising public transport for routes / locations that are difficult to electrify. The partners have continued to work together constructively as well as with vehicle and hydrogen suppliers to resolve the issues faced and ensure reliable operation of the fleets needed to demonstrate the viability of fuel cell buses.

Other project achievements
The JIVE projects have led to several first-of-a-kind developments. Notable achievements from the UK projects include:

• Deployment of the world’s first fleets of fuel cell double decker buses.
• Installation of high-capacity hydrogen refuelling stations designed for expansion with minimal additional CAPEX investment. This includes the HRS in Crawley, which is designed to accept liquid hydrogen and demonstrates a low-footprint solution that can support whole depot conversion to zero emission buses.
• The project unlocked significant investments in modifications to depots required for the safe maintenance of fuel cell buses. Furthermore, the project catalysed activity leading to progress towards guidance for standardised approaches to depot modifications.
• Establishment of a fuel cell bus user group, which offers the opportunity for operators to exchange information on a range of relevant topics and for “follower” sites to learn from those with greater experience.
• Development and delivery of new training for drivers, with a focus on eco-driving, using techniques to maximise fuel efficiency. Adoption of these practices reduces fuel consumption independent of the powertrain technology.
• Raised awareness of hydrogen buses amongst operators and other interested stakeholders. The cities and operators involved in JIVE have communicated information to a wide range of organisations and hosted a large number of depot visits for interested parties from multiple countries.

Next steps
For hydrogen to play a role in decarbonising public transport (and other areas of the transport sector), the issues encountered by the UK-based operators in the JIVE projects must be resolved urgently. Bus operators and others in the sector (e.g., public transport authorities and investors) are adopting and implementing decarbonisation strategies now, hence the need for urgent action if hydrogen is to gain a meaningful share of the market. Greater resilience is required in the supply chains for both vehicle and fuel supplies. The industry must aim for the highest possible levels of availability (>90% of the fleet reliably in service), which will require redundancy and robust back-up options to mitigate the impacts of failures in primary fuel production / supply routes. It is worth noting that other projects within JIVE beyond the UK have not experienced the same level of issues with accessing reliable fuel supplies. For example, in Cologne, where 50 fuel cell buses have been in operation since 2022, the operator has access to multiple hydrogen refuelling stations, each with a different owner / operator.

While this analysis has focused on the UK-based activities in JIVE, the findings are relevant for any sites considering adopting fuel cell buses, and to those with existing fleets considering expansion. The analysis and discussions with cities and operators have led to sets of recommendations for industry (bus and hydrogen / infrastructure providers), bus operators, and governments / policy makers, which if followed should help to unlock the potential of clean hydrogen in decarbonising public transport.

 

[Mwanesh]

The National Express Walsall fleet only a few are back on the road .They have been off the road since end of February.Fueling has been a problem at Tyseley.The pumps have not been working.

 

[Statto]

The Arriva Merseyside hydrogens have only appeared briefly in service last reported in service in June, the hydrogens Stagecoach have, have yet to turn a wheel in service, just being stored at Gillmoss, they just feel like a waste right now when they'd be well on the road had they been electric, or hybrid buses.

 

[Edvid]

Air Products (Metrobus' contracted hydrogen supplier and owner/operator of the storage & refuelling facility in their Crawley depot) have published a two-part podcast on hydrogen. Metrobus MD Ed Wills is among the contributors.

Edit - specific links for Part 1 / Part 2 added

 

[Wyrleybart]

The National Express Walsall fleet only a few are back on the road .They have been off the road since end of February.Fueling has been a problem at Tyseley.The pumps have not been working.

The NXWM fleet seem to be very sporadic. I live in South Staffs and work shifts in Birmingham city centre which means I drive to work for every shift and 95% of the time it is via Barr Beacon, Questlett and Perry Barr. I did see one hydro on a 997 up on the Beacon last week then a couple out a few weeks prior. Definitely seems to be a fuelling issue, but why have to fuel a fleet of buses on the otherside of Birmingham when they are all garaged at Birchills.

 

[47550]

I listened to the podcasts but they seemed to focus on the potential for hydrogen and didn't really talk about the issues that we have had in the UK and how these will be overcome. These seem to be around fuelling. It would be good to understand what is being done to overcome these challenges and when improvements are likely to be in place. Otherwise operators will put hydrogen in the "too hard" box and use will die out. The hydrogen fleet in Liverpool and Birmingham lie idle, not sure what is happening in Aberdeen but a lot of the fleet are off the road, London, Crawley and Belfast fleets get used but a casual look through bustimes suggests only 60% of the fleet are out on any given day. It's 4 years since the first hydrogen buses were introduced but we seem to be a long way from showing that hydrogen has a long term use as fuel for buses.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I listened to the podcasts but they seemed to focus on the potential for hydrogen and didn't really talk about the issues that we have had in the UK and how these will be overcome. These seem to be around fuelling. It would be good to understand what is being done to overcome these challenges and when improvements are likely to be in place. Otherwise operators will put hydrogen in the "too hard" box and use will die out. The hydrogen fleet in Liverpool and Birmingham lie idle, not sure what is happening in Aberdeen but a lot of the fleet are off the road, London, Crawley and Belfast fleets get used but a casual look through bustimes suggests only 60% of the fleet are out on any given day. It's 4 years since the first hydrogen buses were introduced but we seem to be a long way from showing that hydrogen has a long term use as fuel for buses.

My personal opinion based on what I have read is that hydrogen for mobile operations simply does not stack up unless the requirement is near to where the fuel is manufactured. AIUI a lot of electricity is needed to create hydrogen, so surely used that electricity in battery form to power buses, trucks and trains. NXWM have in excess of 300 electric buses in West Midlands each proving the system works. I see loads of them from my office.

 

[PG]

Otherwise operators will put hydrogen in the "too hard" box and use will die out. The hydrogen fleet in Liverpool and Birmingham lie idle, not sure what is happening in Aberdeen but a lot of the fleet are off the road, London, Crawley and Belfast fleets get used but a casual look through bustimes suggests only 60% of the fleet are out on any given day.

Going by this and the information in post #4 it appears (to me) that of the five big groups only Go-Ahead remain committed to Hydrogen. The other four (Arriva, First, NX, Stagecoach) have

put hydrogen in the "too hard" box.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Going by this and the information in post #4 it appears (to me) that of the five big groups only Go-Ahead remain committed to Hydrogen. The other four (Arriva, First, NX, Stagecoach) have

Cannot comment on any except NXWM. I have heard it said that those twenty hydroliners are owned by Birmingham City council and NXWM are contracted to operate them. Also that Tyseley was the initial fuelling arrangement pending installation of a hydrogen fueller in Walsall. There seem to be regular comments that the Tyseley installation is not always working, which is why the NXWM fleet are not very visible. No ideas if that is true, or if the Walsall fueller is true or not. I beliave at least one of the 20 plate hydroliners went for an MOT this year - do they styill have three years exempt live private vehicles do ?

So adding up the facts that are known or hinted, perhaps it could be argued that if they were NXWM's own fleet they might be more productively employed. But having said that NXWM have had five Wright Streetdecks on their books for a few years, and most of that time was spent in store. It is only really since they were moved to Walsall depot they have actually been out in daily service - coincidentally at least one covering a 51 board dedicated to the hydroliner fleet !!

 

[PG]

I beliave at least one of the 20 plate hydroliners went for an MOT this year - do they styill have three years exempt live private vehicles do ?

No. All PCVs have to be tested yearly from new.

Some of our more knowledgeable posters in the Aberdeen area, e.g. @Jordan Adam , may be able to enlighten us on the situation there.

 

[Volvodart]

Some of our more knowledgeable posters in the Aberdeen area, e.g. @Jordan Adam , may be able to enlighten us on the situation there.

Planning permission granted to fuel hydrogen at the depot, but work not started. Probably just enough buses will be done to return the 5 loan E300s to Glasgow plus cover the services regularly not run because no bus is available. This obviously makes it clear to the public that the hydrogen buses are not really zero emission with the hydrogen constituent required to be transported to the depot presumably by diesel lorry. I cannot see all 25 being run until the green hydrogen facility opens for them supposedly next year.

 

[Mwanesh]

Cannot comment on any except NXWM. I have heard it said that those twenty hydroliners are owned by Birmingham City council and NXWM are contracted to operate them. Also that Tyseley was the initial fuelling arrangement pending installation of a hydrogen fueller in Walsall. There seem to be regular comments that the Tyseley installation is not always working, which is why the NXWM fleet are not very visible. No ideas if that is true, or if the Walsall fueller is true or not. I beliave at least one of the 20 plate hydroliners went for an MOT this year - do they styill have three years exempt live private vehicles do ?

So adding up the facts that are known or hinted, perhaps it could be argued that if they were NXWM's own fleet they might be more productively employed. But having said that NXWM have had five Wright Streetdecks on their books for a few years, and most of that time was spent in store. It is only really since they were moved to Walsall depot they have actually been out in daily service - coincidentally at least one covering a 51 board dedicated to the hydroliner fleet !!

Tyseley is out of action most times.Last week it was not working again.The plan was to have a hydrogen plant at Walsall.With the depot surrounded by houses there have been objections .Most of the Walsall hydroliners have about 20 000 miles after over 3 years service .

 

[urban]

Liverpool's hydrogen buses have hardly seen any service since they were introduced 18 months ago. This year the local authority have placed orders over 100 battery-electric buses, so I suppose they have decided the hydrogen experiment is a failure.

An article actually came out today on this topic (excuse the ad-ridden Reach site):

City Region's invisible £10m bus fleet and where they have gone

The first journey of the state-of-the-art fleet of hydrogen buses was launched with much fanfare, but after that things started to go wrong

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Seems they do intend to put them in service but I do wonder how long they will maintain refuelling facilities for just 20 buses.

 

[Energy]

Liverpool's hydrogen buses have hardly seen any service since they were introduced 18 months ago. This year the local authority have placed orders over 100 battery-electric buses, so I suppose they have decided the hydrogen experiment is a failure.

An article actually came out today on this topic (excuse the ad-ridden Reach site):

City Region's invisible £10m bus fleet and where they have gone

The first journey of the state-of-the-art fleet of hydrogen buses was launched with much fanfare, but after that things started to go wrong

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Seems they do intend to put them in service but I do wonder how long they will maintain refuelling facilities for just 20 buses.

LCRCA mentioned procuring electric buses for the 10A, which the hydrogen buses are meant to run.

The combined authority seems to have, correctly, moved fully to battery electric. Its a shame that these buses have had such little use, I suspect there's a few at LCRCA who wish they'd never been ordered...

 

[JD2168]

Operators will be wanting Hydrogen to work as a fuel as a well observed problem with electric is range.

Take for example the Transdev Coastliner service from Leeds to Whitby & Scarborough, how many vehicle swap overs are going to be needed each day if made electric due to the length of the route. Look at the Stagecoach X17 from Barnsley to Wirksworth. Some journeys such as what was the 5:05pm from Matlock to Sheffield that continues to Barnsley now requires passengers to change bus in Chesterfield due to range issues with the electric buses due to be introduced. All this will do if happening on many other routes is it will put passengers off as people who have got comfortable on the bus don’t want to be changing part way through if they shouldn’t have to.

 

[ian1944]

I don't understand the reference to "global supply" of hydrogen. How can it make sense to acquire supplies abroad and transport them in this country, presumably by diesel lorries finally even if there is bulk movement from the port by train, to the point of use? Was the point not to manufacture the gas here, from water via electricity, near where it was wanted?

 

[PG]

I don't understand the reference to "global supply" of hydrogen. How can it make sense to acquire supplies abroad and transport them in this country, presumably by diesel lorries finally even if there is bulk movement from the port by train, to the point of use? Was the point not to manufacture the gas here, from water via electricity, near where it was wanted?

It doesn't make sense. It seems very much that the UK has a case of putting the cart before the horse, by getting vehicles without ensuring they have a dependable fuel supply, which has been recognised by the report quoted by @Edvid in post #2.

The industry must aim for the highest possible levels of availability (>90% of the fleet reliably in service), which will require redundancy and robust back-up options to mitigate the impacts of failures in primary fuel production / supply routes. It is worth noting that other projects within JIVE beyond the UK have not experienced the same level of issues with accessing reliable fuel supplies.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Operators will be wanting Hydrogen to work as a fuel as a well observed problem with electric is range.

Take for example the Transdev Coastliner service from Leeds to Whitby & Scarborough, how many vehicle swap overs are going to be needed each day if made electric due to the length of the route. Look at the Stagecoach X17 from Barnsley to Wirksworth. Some journeys such as what was the 5:05pm from Matlock to Sheffield that continues to Barnsley now requires passengers to change bus in Chesterfield due to range issues with the electric buses due to be introduced. All this will do if happening on many other routes is it will put passengers off as people who have got comfortable on the bus don’t want to be changing part way through if they shouldn’t have to.

Forgive my ignorance of this area but there are (supposed to be) hourly trains from Leeds to Scarborough. So surely the buses should be running the non rail duplicated services from Scarborough to Whitby ? If I were travelling that distance I would rather be on a train for whatever journey I could, with the proviso that road and rail tickets are inter accepted.

Our country really do not make things easy for travellers !!!

 

[47550]

It doesn't make sense. It seems very much that the UK has a case of putting the cart before the horse, by getting vehicles without ensuring they have a dependable fuel supply, which has been recognised by the report quoted by @Edvid in post #2.

I don’t get it either. There is a proposal to build a huge terminal at Immingham Docks to store liquid hydrogen that has been produced in Saudi Arabia and shipped to the UK. If this is the long term proposal that will sort out hydrogen supply issues then it is years off (even if planning permission is approved).

ABP proposes green energy terminal at Immingham port, hydrogen and ammonia facilities included - Hydrogen Central

ABP proposes green energy terminal at Immingham port, hydrogen and ammonia facilities included. A proposed green energy

hydrogen-central.com

 

[Leedsbusman]

Forgive my ignorance of this area but there are (supposed to be) hourly trains from Leeds to Scarborough. So surely the buses should be running the non rail duplicated services from Scarborough to Whitby ? If I were travelling that distance I would rather be on a train for whatever journey I could, with the proviso that road and rail tickets are inter accepted.

Our country really do not make things easy for travellers !!!

Ah that old chestnut. A train runs end to end so there mustn’t be a bus. Despite the fact that Coastliner serves all the communities in between that don’t have a rail service and indeed has done since the 1930s, even when both bus and rail services were nationalised.

 

[TUC]

Forgive my ignorance of this area but there are (supposed to be) hourly trains from Leeds to Scarborough. So surely the buses should be running the non rail duplicated services from Scarborough to Whitby ? If I were travelling that distance I would rather be on a train for whatever journey I could, with the proviso that road and rail tickets are inter accepted.

Our country really do not make things easy for travellers !!!

The buses serve multiple places without a rail service, and competition is good for keeping fares down (the £2 fare issue aside,)

 

[Class 317]

Hydrogen has a real challenge in that it requires around 4.5 times the electricity to produce the same amount of power available for work as it would do if the electricity was used directly. This will always make the economics difficult for operators.

Range of electric buses will become less of an issue as longer range designs become available.

 

[TUC]

Hydrogen has a real challenge in that it requires around 4.5 times the electricity to produce the same amount of power available for work as it would do if the electricity was used directly. This will always make the economics difficult for operators.

That does reinforce the feeling that roo many Green enthusiasts are not very good economists or scientists.

 

[ChrisPJ]

That does reinforce the feeling that roo many Green enthusiasts are not very good economists or scientists.

But if you can produce green electricity cheaply enough, maybe the faster refueling time is worth the extra energy. Time is money after all

 

[Class 317]

That does reinforce the feeling that roo many Green enthusiasts are not very good economists or scientists.

Hydrogen is mainly being pushed by policymakers and the fossil fuels lobby.

Most sensible environmentalists realise the economics don't add up.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Ah that old chestnut. A train runs end to end so there mustn’t be a bus. Despite the fact that Coastliner serves all the communities in between that don’t have a rail service and indeed has done since the 1930s, even when both bus and rail services were nationalised.

I totally accept what you say and agree with you to a degree. So the question is how many passengers benefit from a through bus journey of such distance that the bus cannot complete a day's work without refuelling ?

Guessing that a swap bus half way through the day, perhaps tied in with school runs etc would be an answer but also envisage overhead chargers at large bus stations in the future for recharging electric buses whilst briefly calling. This technology is developing and trialling in Europe at the moment. Obviously, I am guessing hydrogen is not so "quickfill"

 

[K4016td]

Hydrogen has a real challenge in that it requires around 4.5 times the electricity to produce the same amount of power available for work as it would do if the electricity was used directly.

It starts to make sense as a method to convert extra electricity generated druing the day from solar and wind that cannot be used elsewhere or otherwise redundant spare power generated overnight from nuclear plants who are less flexible to operate. Even if it is 4.5 less efficient than direct, still better than nothing and just letting it to waste. Now a question whether it is cheaper (and perhaps more environmently friendly) to produce hydrogen and store it or to store generated power in batteries banks that require tons of minerals to be extracted to create them.

 

[47550]

It starts to make sense as a method to convert extra electricity generated druing the day from solar and wind that cannot be used elsewhere or otherwise redundant spare power generated overnight from nuclear plants who are less flexible to operate. Even if it is 4.5 less efficient than direct, still better than nothing and just letting it to waste. Now a question whether it is cheaper (and perhaps more environmently friendly) to produce hydrogen and store it or to store generated power in batteries banks that require tons of minerals to be extracted to create them.

I agree - wind farms dont run at capacity at the moment as there are times when the grid doesnt need all the energy it can produce. Similarly lots of free (ish) solar in the middle east which is why presumably Saudi Arabia is looking at building hydrogen plants there and exporting to the UK.

Battery technology is a lot more developed than hydrogen at the moment but that's not to say that hydrogen wont have it's place. For buses, (expensive) batteries replacing after 7-8 years (not to mention sourcing the rare earth minerals) so they're not a panacea for green energy yet.

Having said that I do believe that the supply issues for hydrogen need to be resolved quickly if there is to be a future for hydrogen as a fuel.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I agree - wind farms dont run at capacity at the moment as there are times when the grid doesnt need all the energy it can produce. Similarly lots of free (ish) solar in the middle east which is why presumably Saudi Arabia is looking at building hydrogen plants there and exporting to the UK.

wind farms get forced off the grid not because we can't use it but because we haven't invested in the transmission system to move the energy from N.Scotland to England.

Battery technology is a lot more developed than hydrogen at the moment but that's not to say that hydrogen wont have it's place. For buses, (expensive) batteries replacing after 7-8 years (not to mention sourcing the rare earth minerals) so they're not a panacea for green energy yet.

Having said that I do believe that the supply issues for hydrogen need to be resolved quickly if there is to be a future for hydrogen as a fuel.

Slightly related

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/11/25/hydrogen-trains-continue-to-derail/