Hybrid Voyagers

[Nym]

It's the pickup isn't 'safe' past 100mph...

 

[HSTEd]

What is the platform length at London St Pancras?
Could the domestic platforms support 14 carriage sets or would 10/12 be the maximum?

That way you could run two sets on the fast Sheffield service and then splitting to send 5/6/7 carriage sets to Leeds and Manchester, unless there is a room to have a second fast path.

EDIT:
With regards to putting third rail capability on 222s, in theory you could simply retrofit the shoebeams onto every single motor vehicle and forgo using the power bus at all.

And what about making every EMT 222 up to HST equivalent length (~10 carriages)?

 

[DXMachina]

No.. thats not what I was referring to... it was definitely about new stock that had been tested to 110 but in practice could rarely meet 100 because the power draw was too great with more than one in a section. And i imagine that was about commuter not express stock so would have been lower current draw ...

 

[HSTEd]

No.. thats not what I was referring to... it was definitely about new stock that had been tested to 110 but in practice could rarely meet 100 because the power draw was too great with more than one in a section. And i imagine that was about commuter not express stock so would have been lower current draw ...

Well in that case you could plant ERTMS beacons that use Code 44 messages to transmit the capacity of the supply system in that area to the train as it enters each section. The TMS could either restrict the top notches of the throttle or simply leave some of the trains generators active to make up the power loading.

 

[Nym]

With regards to putting third rail capability on 222s, in theory you could simply retrofit the shoebeams onto every single motor vehicle and forgo using the power bus at all.

But that would rely on the DC stage of the traction system running at 750V, that it doesn't... it's closer to 2kV IIRC..

Unless you can intergrate some power electronics into the shoegear...

 

[HSTEd]

Well Ive got a proper count for new sets for this Meridian spam programme:

63 Cl222/2 10 carriage sets:-
5 sets for XC (HST replacement)
17 sets for East Coast (HST replacement and Lincoln trains)
16 sets for EMT (HST replacement and Leeds/Manchester trains)
25 sets for Great Western (HST replacement)

54 Cl222/3 6 carriage sets:
16 sets for Great Western (Cotswold Line)
6 sets for Grand Central (HST replacement)
16 sets for SWT (159 replacement)
16 sets for TPE (South and North West) [just an estimate on the count neccesary for TPE-NW]

Bringing us to a total of 954 carriages for newbuild sets

Also, wouldnt it be better to have a transformer carriage sufficient to support five motor vehicles [~2.9MW] by itself, I worry that smaller transformers would lead to reduced motor vehicle numbers to the degree that timekeeping is threatened.
This would permit one transformer for 6 carriage trains and 2 for 10 carriage trains with the option to extend the latter at a later date. AS for the shoegear concept, I suppose it would be easier to integrate it with the transformer vehicle as you can then use the transformer as part of a push-pull converter.

EDIT:
Additionally if the hourly Cardiff-Manchester train was transferred to XC and merged with TPE NW "network" then an additional ~5 222/3 sets would be required for XC, and ~10 of the NW sets would be transferred to XC.

As for converting the current EMT Cl222 fleet to ED operation as part of this scheme, 30 of the larger transformer vehicles would be required as the trains are reformed into 24 6-carriage ED trains and 3 10-carriage ED trains which would would require the construction of one additional intermediate motor vehicle.
This means that conversion would take 31 additional vehicles bringing the overall count to 985 Meridian vehicles.

 

[jopsuk]

don't forget the 221s and 2220s- how many extra carriages would you specify for those?

 

[WatcherZero]

I think people are getting a tad carried away here, the Dft is baulking at the idea of £100m on just 35 extra carriages (and modifications to existing sets), how much are you thinking they are spending here?

 

[HSTEd]

I think people are getting a tad carried away here, the Dft is baulking at the idea of £100m on just 35 extra carriages (and modifications to existing sets), how much are you thinking they are spending here?

I know this is rather larger than the DAfT programme, but I do imagine this would be cheaper than continuing with the IEP even in the face of resistance from the TOCs and ROSCOs. Whichever way you look at it HST replacement is going to be extremely expensive.

Well if I had my way the Cl220s would be cascaded to some regional line and replaced with more Cl222s but as that is impractical all I would do is purchase a transformer vehicle for every set, which is 34 for the Cl220.
I would purchase 44 transformer vehicles for the Cl221, combined with four additional Cl221 intermediate motors to get all trains (including 221144) up to six carriage length, making 48 total.
This makes 92 total vehicles for a total order of 1077 Cl22x vehicles

 

[ainsworth74]

Deleted

 

[Yew]

I think electric meridians could be nice intercity unit.

Just throwing it out there, but could you put a big diesel in one of the end cars, so instead of having underfloor desiels, you just had underfloor electrics, and then an end car with Restaraunt, engines, guards compartment and things like that?

 

[HSTEd]

I think electric meridians could be nice intercity unit.

Just throwing it out there, but could you put a big diesel in one of the end cars, so instead of having underfloor desiels, you just had underfloor electrics, and then an end car with Restaraunt, engines, guards compartment and things like that?

That would most likely result in the loss of the rather helpful RA2/RA4 code assigned to Cl220/221/222s and probably bump it up to something similar (or indeed worse) than the code for the HST thanks to the really heavy part of the traction system, the diesels, being concentrated in one carriage.

This would be bad for the "go anywhere" concept.

 

[dave59]

985 Meridians? Incredible that the IEP (particularly the Bi-Mode aspect of any order) is lambasted by so many without even turning a wheel yet the mediocre 22x is lauded as the 'super express' for much of the UK's IC network! Justine Greening is already intimating that a small order of eVoyagers for XC is "too expensive" so the DfT is not (yet) considering economies of scale in this project - more likely a short term political sop to Derby. Hopefully this will not be the case and the project will grow to cover the entire existing fleet. It would make a very capable go-anywhere unit.

However if there is to be any of the much needed standardisation and large scale orders favoured by McNulty to replace or add to the existing ex-BR IC stock, the passenger environment must be Mk3 and better quality. This would certainly not be delivered by more of the 22x family or the Pendolino.

 

[TheWalrus]

What do you guys think - electrify parts of XC with new emus/edmus to displace enough voyagers to be converted to edmus and used on london-exeter/cotswols/cheltenham/west of england and potentially cardiff-pompey (utilising ac overhead wires west of bath)?

 

[HSTEd]

985 Meridians? Incredible that the IEP (particularly the Bi-Mode aspect of any order) is lambasted by so many without even turning a wheel yet the mediocre 22x is lauded as the 'super express' for much of the UK's IC network! Justine Greening is already intimating that a small order of eVoyagers for XC is "too expensive" so the DfT is not (yet) considering economies of scale in this project - more likely a short term political sop to Derby. Hopefully this will not be the case and the project will grow to cover the entire existing fleet. It would make a very capable go-anywhere unit.

However if there is to be any of the much needed standardisation and large scale orders favoured by McNulty to replace or add to the existing ex-BR IC stock, the passenger environment must be Mk3 and better quality. This would certainly not be delivered by more of the 22x family or the Pendolino.

The 222 environment is not significantly worse than the Mark 3 environment, IMO in the case of many of the more run down Mark 3s (Great Western) the 222 at-least comes out on top easily with the earlier members of the family suffering largely due to overcrowding. Even the relatively recently rebuilt East Coast ones are variable in quality.

The IEP is lambasted because of its excessive and constantly changing specifications including abandoning the go-anywhere C3 clearances for 26m vehicles, additionally the Cl222s are already half ready for bi-mode operation and as such could be in service in that capacity far more quickly than the IEP, indeed as the bi-mode equipment is not integral to the normal traction system the trains could enter service as diesel units in advance of the completion of the transformer carriages.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Convert all voyagers and leave the meridians for now as benefits are negligible due to lack of further MML electrification. Hopefully bombardier will lower prices and make this look very attractive to the government.

 

[TheWalrus]

Im all for the bi mode idea, Im just thinking 22x converdion may be cheaper and better value.

 

[paul1609]

Thought I saw elsewhere on this board it being stated that 3rd rail can't provide enough power for a long train at 100+mph?

Eurostars with 16 coaches on used to regularly run at 100 mph between Tonbridge and Folkestone; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhzwDjpxJ2Y

 

[gordonthemoron]

Eurostars with 16 coaches on used to regularly run at 100 mph between Tonbridge and Folkestone; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhzwDjpxJ2Y

yes, 100mph is the limit

 

[jopsuk]

With the "fantasy" order, it would probably become economical for them to set up the factory in derby to build them in britain...

 

[HSTEd]

With the "fantasy" order, it would probably become economical for them to set up the factory in derby to build them in britain...

Especially if the order was contingent on this occurring.
And then there are probably additional orders that could be justified, such as extending every single MML 222 to full HST equivalent length (10 carriages) to enable full clockface termination service to Leeds, Manchester, Nottingham and Sheffield.

Oh and ordering additional units for XC to enable the Cl220s to be run doubled up as standard, completely eliminating the capacity issue they have permanently, that or enabling them to expand the network further.

 

[WatcherZero]

Modern Rail is reporting a rumour that the Crewe-Chester electrification that was being offered as an optional contract extension on the WCML refranchising has been dropped, it will now be a welcomed private submission. Instead Alstom are offering a six carriage mini Pendolinos with a diesel locomotive power car to drag them beyond the wires once they reach the end. To facillitate quick coupling and decoupling they will have a fast process and permanently exposed and extended couplers rather than the retractable couplers and hood that the existing ones use.

So these will be EMU with added diesel for hybrid operation rather than the planned eVoyagers DMU with added electrical pickup. Doesnt seem to be a suggestion this would replace the eVoyager project but would be instead of modifying them all.

This is now the Dft's favoured option for Welsh services they report.

 

[northwichcat]

Instead Alstom are offering a six carriage mini Pendolinos with a diesel locomotive power car to drag them beyond the wires once they reach the end. To facillitate quick coupling and decoupling they will have a fast process and permanently extended couplers rather than the retractable couplers and hood that the existing ones use.

Tony Miles has suggested that if DfT presses ahead with looking at a Pendolino alternative to IEP then Alstom will produce a version of a Pendolino which can be diesel operated, which can work attached to a fully electric Pendolino

This is now the Dft's favoured option for Welsh services they report.

As previous discussions on Chester-London being EMU have shown, electrifying Chester-Crewe creates a lot of problems trying to maintain the current service level to North Wales and effectively using EMUs under the wires.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Modern Rail is reporting a rumour that the Crewe-Chester electrification that was being offered as an optional contract extension on the WCML refranchising has been dropped, it will now be a welcomed private submission. Instead Alstom are offering a six carriage mini Pendolinos with a diesel locomotive power car to drag them beyond the wires once they reach the end. To facillitate quick coupling and decoupling they will have a fast process and permanently exposed and extended couplers rather than the retractable couplers and hood that the existing ones use.

So these will be EMU with added diesel for hybrid operation rather than the planned
eVoyagers DMU with added electrical pickup.

This is now the Dft's favoured option for Welsh services.

Read that too and to be honest i did like what i heard, sounds a solid idea. Shame IEP cant be like that :/ think alstom would come up with a pretty solid alterantive.

What i do hope is that this doesnt stop the evoyager project, as XC will by 2020 be able to use it for long distances.
Glasgow Central to wakefield westgate/doncaster, oxford to reading, birstol parkway to bristol temple meads manchester picadilly to birmingham new street. Now there are two pretty big sections there. On already confirmed electrifcation projects.

The fear is, remove london euston to crewe, and the birmingham new street to scotland services from the list and it might not look as attractive.

 

[northwichcat]

The fear is, remove london euston to crewe, and the birmingham new street to scotland services from the list and it might not look as attractive.

Wasn't the suggested number of pantograph vehicles being ordered initially only enough to extend the 4 car Voyagers with XC to 5 car Voyagers with a pantograph?

 

[WatcherZero]

30-35 extended (and associated modifications to existing carriages) at £100m. That works out at £3.3m a carriage (and probably more as the 100m sounds like a ballpark quote) which is probably getting on 25-50% more than what you would pay for a new build.

 

[Nym]

But if Alstom build what should have been built for the IEP anyway, then ICWC won't need any 22x units, all of these can then go to XC or ICGW meaning no need for BiMode IEP anyway.

One wonders if such locomotives would be able to pull 9 or 11 car pendos, and if the 6 car pendos would be able to work in multiple with eachother (yes, I'm thinking Manchester - Scotland!)

30 of these 6 car units would do nicely for Brum - Scotland, Manc - Scotland (Could actually portion work with Birmingham units, or Liverpool units, provided SDO can be arranged for 11 car platforms. And if the new locomotive Alstom would build could haul any pendo, thats diversions taken care of.

 

[HSTEd]

Read that too and to be honest i did like what i heard, sounds a solid idea. Shame IEP cant be like that :/ think alstom would come up with a pretty solid alterantive.

What i do hope is that this doesnt stop the evoyager project, as XC will by 2020 be able to use it for long distances.
Glasgow Central to wakefield westgate/doncaster, oxford to reading, birstol parkway to bristol temple meads manchester picadilly to birmingham new street. Now there are two pretty big sections there. On already confirmed electrifcation projects.

The fear is, remove london euston to crewe, and the birmingham new street to scotland services from the list and it might not look as attractive.

Interesting proposal but I fear for the eVoyager programme if this goes ahead, which will leave us with a tonne of DEMUs that cant take advantage of all that expensive overhead wiring :\

 

[Nym]

However, if it means that XC received all of the 221 fleet, it could herald an extension to the eVoyager project to include all 220 and 221 units (we can only hope) and then 222 units, would be nice to have the extra capacity at XC, and if Alstom say the loco design can work, and if additionally they can update the current 390 fleet to be able to work with these locos, possibly in 'push/pull' too then we have proven that Hitachi are stupid or lazy.

And then with more electrification and pure electric routes appearing for either the MML or XC, 22x units can sod off to the GW, (or the 221 units directly from ICWC with a panto coach added, as this could happen before the 2020 cut off, MML electrification would be pushing it!) it would minimise the number of HSTs needing DDA modifications, and remove the need for more sodding diesel LDPE stock!

 

[jones_bangor]

Modern Rail is reporting a rumour that the Crewe-Chester electrification that was being offered as an optional contract extension on the WCML refranchising has been dropped, it will now be a welcomed private submission. Instead Alstom are offering a six carriage mini Pendolinos with a diesel locomotive power car to drag them beyond the wires once they reach the end. To facillitate quick coupling and decoupling they will have a fast process and permanently exposed and extended couplers rather than the retractable couplers and hood that the existing ones use.

So these will be EMU with added diesel for hybrid operation rather than the planned eVoyagers DMU with added electrical pickup. Doesnt seem to be a suggestion this would replace the eVoyager project but would be instead of modifying them all.

This is now the Dft's favoured option for Welsh services they report.

Very interesting - and makes a lot of sense. I assume this means Crewe-Chester-North Wales and Cardiff - West Wales (rather than IEP)?