Hull Trains Adelante problems

[GNERman]

gc bradford trains aren't going to stop at peterborough are they?

 

[rail-britain]

Yes, that's what I said. GC have not been allowed to call, yet HT have

Apologies, your original reply looks like a question as to "How" it would make sense, perhaps a typo for "Now"

gc bradford trains aren't going to stop at peterborough are they?

http://www.grandunionrail.com/
Not based on their current application

 

[asylumxl]

Why has this gone from HT to GC?

Ah well. It's about time the 180s were given a major overhaul.

 

[yorkie]

Why has this gone from HT to GC?

It hasn't, but the comparisons are relevant as they are both open access operators using (or about to use!) 180s.

 

[rail-britain]

Ah well. It's about time the 180s were given a major overhaul

There should be no need to do this
The RoSCo should provide suitable alternative rolling stock during any such investigation of faults
This was one of the reasons why FGW was so frustrated with them
I can't see the units getting overhauled, more like scrapped; it wouldn't be the first such train to get scrapped within a few years of being introduced

 

[asylumxl]

The RoSCo should provide suitable alternative rolling stock during any such investigation of faults
This was one of the reasons why FGW was so frustrated with them

I'd assume they weren't replaced by alternatives, because alternatives aren't really available. Class 43s, 22Xs, 91s are all pretty much taken.

 

[yorkie]

Saturday 27 June
1A92 0802 HUL-KGX Terminated Retford.
1A95 1506 HUL-KGX Cancelled throughout

1H04 1148 KGX-HUL Cancelled throughout
1H08 1941 KGX-HUL Cancelled throughout

 

[djw1981]

How much money changed hands for HT/First to swap the 222 for the 180's? Crofton did winders with the 3 222's to keep them in service with pretty good reliability. Who is maintaining the 180's? Alsthom, Crofton (Bombardier) or an HT team trained by the FGW guys who knew the units?

 

[metrocammel]

From a purely aesthetic point of view, I feel HT has gone down dramatically. Although admitedly, I am not a fan of under-floor engine DMMUs or DEMUs, I actually liked the 222s. I travelled a fair few miles on them, and thought they were very comfortable, in both Standard & First class.

In stark comparison, I travelled on a HT 180 last Wednesday. Thankfully, it was only between Hull and Selby. There is absolutely no comparison between a 222 and a 180- especially considering the comfort of the seats, and the luggage provisions on the former being far superior to the Alstom excuse. A 180 really does feel like you're on a 175- a regional 'express' unit, masquerading as an InterCity train. On Northern, they are a nice novelty. Replacing superior units with 180s in this scenario is an insult to Hull Trains' passengers.

Also, on Wednesday I noticed that there were two travelling fitters on the train from Hull, one of which alighted at Selby, and then caught the next 180 east, the other presumably continued south.

 

[asylumxl]

How much money changed hands for HT/First to swap the 222 for the 180's? Crofton did winders with the 3 222's to keep them in service with pretty good reliability. Who is maintaining the 180's? Alsthom, Crofton (Bombardier) or an HT team trained by the FGW guys who knew the units?

Well, the trains themselves seem to be at Crofton.

 

[David Pemberton]

How much money changed hands for HT/First to swap the 222 for the 180's? Crofton did winders with the 3 222's to keep them in service with pretty good reliability. Who is maintaining the 180's? Alsthom, Crofton (Bombardier) or an HT team trained by the FGW guys who knew the units?

I was told by a senior TOC executive that there was considerable polictal pressure because the transfer of 2221xx units to EMT was needed to support the new Corby service. The new Corby service had been a cause championed by the local MP.

 

[Waverley125]

one of the southbound services was terminated at Newark on saturday, and the 9:05 NXEC Leeds service carried passengers southwards.

 

[222001]

one of the southbound services was terminated at Newark on saturday, and the 9:05 NXEC Leeds service carried passengers southwards.

This is just getting stupid now. Couldn't they take on emergency hire of an EMT 222 for a while until these problems are sorted? EMT will be one 222 up once they get 222103 anyway.
Whatever happens they need to do something it is ruining their reputation.

 

[rail-britain]

I'd assume they weren't replaced by alternatives, because alternatives aren't really available. Class 43s, 22Xs, 91s are all pretty much taken.

Exactly, and this is the issue
Every time a TOC has upgraded or replaced their existing fleet there has been some of the old rolling stock retained, just in case
For some reason when a new service is introduced no consideration is being given for reliability issues
As a result when they strike, they often result in the service being cancelled

There will come a point where it adversely affects the TOC reputation (if they had one to start with!)

 

[anthony263]

Maybe hull trains need their class 86 loco hauled train back.

Its stupid why these class 180's are being so unreliable, while from what i have seen the class 175's operated by arriva seem to be working ok.

hopefully alstom will be able to sort something out asap, but are northern experiencing problems with their class 180's.

i sure dont think national express will want the class 180's if the keep breaking down.

 

[GNERman]

i sure dont think national express will want the class 180's if the keep breaking down.

nxec already have 5 - r on loan to northern rail and 2 others, only 180101 is not on loan yet and gc may take that.

what else can nxec use for the new lincoln service?

all hst's are used on non electrified routes eg harrogate, skipton, hull, aberdeen and inverness so they need more stock.

they really should get those 90's and mk 3's and that will help

as for hull trains amd emt - why couldn't emt have taken 180's instead and ht keep their reputation sound - makes sense...

what about nxec using 67's and DVT's for lincoln, freeing 180's...

 

[yorkie]

Maybe hull trains need their class 86 loco hauled train back.

They should have booked it as soon as they heard they were getting 180s, and it should have been on standby immediately.

You should also diagram to have a couple of 180s out of action at any one time because you won't get a high availability rating out of them.

Of course they won't do this because of costs and it's cheaper in the short term to cancel trains and pay NXEC to take the passengers.

I wonder if anyone thinks a whole trainload of passengers should be forced to pay NXEC for new tickets and then go through the inconvenience of writing to Hull Trains to be re-reimbursed, or if that only applies to a one-off customer on their own who can more easily be forced into coughing up.

Passengers should always come first, as in any service industry.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

as for hull trains amd emt - why couldn't emt have taken 180's instead and ht keep their reputation sound - makes sense.....

Please make more of an effort to use correct punctuation, capital letters, etc

You make some good points but the DfT insisted on the deal to keep a common(ish!) 22x fleet on EMT.

The DfT do not like open access operators so they are hardly going to "let HT keep their reputation sound", on the contrary they want to keep costs low with franchised TOCs that they will have to support in the event of any going bust.

The DfT will be delighted that they managed to get nearly all the 180s with open access operators!

There's only one way the 180s will be reliable and that's if one depot services all the sets on lease to all three TOCs, and if that depot brings in people who know the machines inside out, and invests heavily in ensuring a low staff turnover and really getting to grips with the units. If this is not done they will never be reliable.

FGW did make great progress with the 180s but if you split them up (not just from each other, but from the people who maintained them too) then all that will count for nothing for the TOCs that now lease them.

At the end of the day they should never have been built.

And given the ECMLs capacity problems, especially at Doncaster, Peterborough, Hitchin, and Welwyn the solution is long trains NOT short formed rattling awful unreliable DMUs.

This would not happen in a country that cared about public transport.

 

[GNERman]

sorry yorkie i'm posting on a mobile phone so it's not as easy as on pc...

anyway on the 86 dilemma, it is being used by gbrf for mail contracts along with the 87 but whether both are needed is questionable...

it does make sense though but did the 86 keep up timings as limited to 110 mph?

 

[222001]

as for hull trains amd emt - why couldn't emt have taken 180's instead and ht keep their reputation sound - makes sense...

I remember reading that EMT didn't want to take on the cost of maintaining two different fleets. They said it would not make money sense and would never touch the 180s. Hull Trains didn't HAVE to give up their 222s though so that is their bad!

 

[jon0844]

Are the 180s really cheap to lease or something? And what contract do they have? If you leased a car, you'd expect a courtesy car or possibly compensation for being without it due to a failure.

So, what do the train leasing companies have to do to keep their stock working?

 

[yorkie]

it does make sense though but did the 86 keep up timings as limited to 110 mph?

They omitted the Retford stop on some runs to be sure, but yes it did do some impressive timings. Some people kept records but I can't remember the timings.

You don't really lose a lot doing 110 instead of 125. For example, if 115 miles of the route was fit for 125mph, and assuming no time for acceleration/deceleration, it would take just over 55 minutes at 125mph compared to 60 minutes at 115mph. There's more slack than that in the timetables.

 

[45039]

Been to doncaster today and the adelante's have been a nightmare today again.
Southbound.
1617 (off doncaster) on time.
1803 terminated at doncaster.
2010 cancelled.
Northbound.
1512 (off doncaster) limped in got attention then went to hull.
1742 broke down at retford causing chaos to NXEC services.
2031 terminated at doncaster despite having attention.

And GC and NXEC are going to use these pile of rubbish for their services they will bring the east coast to a standstill.
Can NXEC still get hold of the 90's and mk3's?.

 

[metrocammel]

People seem to be forgetting one major issue when it comes to mk3s...... They don't grow on trees :P


Back when the HT 86 diagram was working, Virgin were using WB64 on the Euston-Birmingham route. Since then, this has gone to Doncaster for refurbishment- and won't be released until at least August. This means the Cargo-D mk3s that were used on the Hull Trains' service last year are otherwise engaged!

Also, on the subject of the NXEC mk3s, I think the answer there is no, as Virgin didn't opt for the 180 plan, and instead decided to refurbish the mk3 rake to 'Pendolino' standard. As this set made up a considerable amount of the NXEC transfer, it's dead in the water.

 

[Kneedown]

as for hull trains amd emt - why couldn't emt have taken 180's instead and ht keep their reputation sound - makes sense...

I have always said that the 180's should've gone to EMT for the Liverpool - Norwich's for the simple reason that, troublesome though they are, they would be heaps better than the 158's we are currently stuck with, however, why should EMT be stuck with unreliable units whilst fly by night open access operators get the cream of the crop? Surely the TOC's that are franchised to run a set service should get the best rolling stock? If the open access bod's don't like whats left over then they should pay out for their own rolling stock because it's quite simply a crime that passengers are cramming onto 2 car units for a 5+ hour journey when more suitable stock is being utilised by non-franchised operators.

 

[jon0844]

I've asked this question before, but why can't the 180s be fixed? Were they so unique that nobody can ever hope to maintain them?

And because they're leased, why isn't the ROSCO forced to do whatever it takes - even if means replacing loads of key parts. Come to think of it, what sort of warranty does the ROSCO/TOC get from the manufacturer?

Do they just pass the buck and blame each other? I bet the manufacturer can argue that the problems stem from poor maintenance from people they don't directly employ and wash their hands of the problem.

It's not good enough. These trains aren't that old. Someone should establish the fault(s) and then make good - even if it means taking them all out of service for six months to be stripped and rebuilt!

 

[devon_metro]

I have always said that the 180's should've gone to EMT for the Liverpool - Norwich's for the simple reason that, troublesome though they are, they would be heaps better than the 158's we are currently stuck with, however, why should EMT be stuck with unreliable units whilst fly by night open access operators get the cream of the crop? Surely the TOC's that are franchised to run a set service should get the best rolling stock? If the open access bod's don't like whats left over then they should pay out for their own rolling stock because it's quite simply a crime that passengers are cramming onto 2 car units for a 5+ hour journey when more suitable stock is being utilised by non-franchised operators.

Hull Trains shelled out for their 222s, so by that reasoning, why should EMT have them whilst they are working with the currently hopeless 180s.

 

[anthony263]

In the case of the mark 3 coaches, aren't Cargo D likely to get back the ones which are on hire to Wrexham & shropshire when they get their refurbished stock and what is happening with the mark 3 carriages in ireland, i did read that all they would need is new boggies which most likely have come from withdrawn mark 3 sleeper carriages to make capatible with the british track gauge.

 

[krus_aragon]

I've asked this question before, but why can't the 180s be fixed? Were they so unique that nobody can ever hope to maintain them?

Well they're not that unique: their little brothers the 175s had plenty of problems back in their early days, but they've been ironed out by FNW and later Arriva.

IMHO it was imperative for FNW to get the units working properly, as they didn't have anything to fall back on. These were their premier units, and the alternative was bringing back pacers and heritage DMUs. When they were transferred to Arriva the units stayed at the same depot, so driver/maintainance experience was carried over.

FGW's 180s supplemented their HST fleet, and rolling back to using HSTs was a more acceptable climb-down when things didn't work. They found a way to get rid of them rather than having to fix them. I have no idea where all the 180s are maintained now, but the fact that they're operated in small batches all over the place makes me think that it's unlikely the problems will be fixed soon.

If there were an outbreak of the bleeding obvious I'd hope to see them herded over toward Wales, given that a: there are people in Chester that fixed the 175s and b: we've got the only other units that they'll work in multiple with! I freely admit that I don't know what we'd do with them, though: the Birmingham-Aberystwyth/Pwllheli/Holyhead diagrams would have to stay 158-based for multiple working and RETB/ERTMS on the Cambrian. Cascade some 175s down to West Wales and Ebbw Vale services, perhaps?

 

[Max]

Hull Trains are promising improvements:

http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/news/Hull-Trains-better/article-1132259-detail/article.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/realmedia/looknorthhull/bb/looknorth_16x9_bb.asx (first report - 1:00-5:00 and comments at the end of the programme)

What's clear is that their image is definitely being damaged. However, the guy who wrote into Look North (first comment at the end of the show) and said that he had paid £150 for a new ticket was clearly a bit of a fool - there was no need to buy new tickets, surely?

 

[F Great Eastern]

You beat me to it, was just about to post the same thing.