Hull Trains 180 replacement

[159220]

IEP is not a train, it is the programme. (Intercity Express Programme)

The train selected for IEP is Hitachi's Super Express Train (SET), which itself is derived from the AT-300

The AT-300 series also includes the Class 395. (http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/innovation_49.html)

Thus surely, Hull Trains would be interested in a straight electric AT-300 from Hitachi, a Pendolino from Alstom, a UK gauge design of the Bombardier Zefiro, a UK gauge design of the CAF Oaris and Siemens Venturio UK (I think the Venturio was FGW original 2002 choice for HST replacement but the SRA blocked it)

Links:

Hitachi: http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at-300-high-speed_47.html
Bombardier: http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...s/rail-vehicles/high-speed-trains/zefiro.html
CAF: http://www.caf.es/en/productos-servicios/familia/oaris/index.php
Siemens: http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...ns/Pages/high-speed-and-intercity-trains.aspx

Back from 2002...
http://www.firstgroup.com/latest_news/?id=003201

Interesting that Siemens has only recently re-added the Venturio to its line up!

 

[Rhydgaled]

a UK gauge design of the Bombardier Zefiro

Wouldn't an EMU based on a Voyager (given that's a Bombardier product and already UK gauge) be more likely? Your link also seems to suggest that Zefiro is a HighSpeed product (perhaps a possibility for HS2, but not the ECML where 140mph is probably the most we might see in the forseeable future and even that isn't certain).

 

[Manchester77]

Indeed 236 mph would be a tad overkill for the ECML! An add on order for XC EMUs would seem logical and if these were add ons to a ICWC EMU order then the ball would be rolling.

 

[Eagle]

Wouldn't an EMU based on a Voyager (given that's a Bombardier product and already UK gauge) be more likely?

That would depend on whether Bombardier Belgium are willing to dust off a design they haven't used in a decade (the last Voyagers built were the HT Meridians/"Pioneers", which arrived in spring of 2005) for a very small bespoke order.

Unlikely, I think.

 

[junglejames]

Whatever it is, it'd have to be capable of 125 mph. Which rules out anything with a blunt end as those are limited to 110 (formerly 100 before the recent Desiro upgrades).

Im assuming you mean MUs? In which case you may be right regarding a limit on blunt ends of 100mph (now 110).
Just thought id check before mentioning the 87s
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IEP is not a train, it is the programme. (Intercity Express Programme)

Very true. Easiest to remember though! Plus can stand for numerous things, like 'Inexpicably expensive pootube' etc etc

The train selected for IEP is Hitachi's Super Express Train (SET)

Or 'Sh**e expensive train' for short

Siemens Venturio UK (I think the Venturio was FGW original 2002 choice for HST replacement but the SRA blocked it)

The coaches may have been based on the Venturio, but it was going to have power cars at either end, like the current HST.

 

[starrymarkb]

The what??? All these daft names that keep appearing. Just because something may have the same traction motors as are under the 390s, people have to add in the name pendolino, or lino, or no, or dolino.
Its like those that mention non tilting pendolinos? A what? Pendolino is the name given (by the Italians I think) to tilting trains! A non tilting, tilting train:roll:

It wasn't an official name, just an enthusiast portmanduau of Aldelante and Pendolino. 180 with 390 traction. I believe Alstom were touting it as a lower cost Electric IEP alternative.

And there are non-tilt Pendolinos on the continent - if you want a 125mph Express Alstom will sell you a "New Pendolino" with the tilt removed.

 

[jopsuk]

As aside, as far as 125mph trains go there's distinctly non-aero French locomotives cheerfully run at 200km/h with hauled stock (no aero rear coach/DVT/etc)

 

[AndyLandy]

Also, the internal layout cannot be changed that much, because of the 26m bodies. Luggage racks will have to stay the other side of the vestibule, causing possible chaos at busy stations (thats if anyone even wants to leave their luggage there).

Actually, that one's pretty easy to fix. You take out a couple of seats in the passenger saloon and put in a luggage rack there. In the carriage-ends where the previous luggage racks were, you put a couple of flip-up seats.

We've already established that there are passengers who prefer to stand, so we could actually cater for them by creating a slightly larger vestibule area.

 

[jon0844]

Wouldn't any new train need to be capable of being 'upgraded' to 140mph running, assuming they'll be in use for long enough to potentially see further upgrades on the ECML (including new signalling)?

 

[tbtc]

That would depend on whether Bombardier Belgium are willing to dust off a design they haven't used in a decade (the last Voyagers built were the HT Meridians/"Pioneers", which arrived in spring of 2005) for a very small bespoke order.

Unlikely, I think.

The tiny order size makes me suspect that we are going to get a follow-on order from an existing type - that may be new trains for the MML (like happened when HT bought 222s after NEG ordered them for MM) or IEP or the "baby pendos" that may be ordered for the WCML franchise to replace most of the current Voyager duties, I don't know.

 

[joeykins82]

I assume it'd be possible to order some IEP/SET sets from the active production line but outside of the DfT full service PFI programme. Otherwise I suppose they could be sorting out the electrification timetable & facility charge, then jumping on whatever order is made for the EMT post-MML electrification stock.

 

[route:oxford]

That would depend on whether Bombardier Belgium are willing to dust off a design they haven't used in a decade (the last Voyagers built were the HT Meridians/"Pioneers", which arrived in spring of 2005) for a very small bespoke order.

Unlikely, I think.

"I'm sorry, we don't want your business. Have you tried Alstom?"

Or licence the design to Stadler...

 

[Rhydgaled]

Wouldn't any new train need to be capable of being 'upgraded' to 140mph running, assuming they'll be in use for long enough to potentially see further upgrades on the ECML (including new signalling)?

The class 91 upgrades proposed by Eversholt include ERTMS, so I think ERTMS on part of the ECML might be on the cards for CP6 or the begining of CP7. If so, I suspect that if anything stops IEP, IC225 or class 390s doing 140mph it will be pathing.

 

[ainsworth74]

The class 91 upgrades proposed by Eversholt include ERTMS, so I think ERTMS on part of the ECML might be on the cards for CP6 or the begining of CP7. If so, I suspect that if anything stops IEP, IC225 or class 390s doing 140mph it will be pathing.

I believe the current plan from the London North Eastern route plan is for ETCS to be deployed in 2018 between London and Doncaster and I believe ERTMS level two is supposed to be phased in after that (2020 rings a bell).

 

[D365]

The class 91 upgrades proposed by Eversholt include ERTMS, so I think ERTMS on part of the ECML might be on the cards for CP6 or the begining of CP7. If so, I suspect that if anything stops IEP, IC225 or class 390s doing 140mph it will be pathing.

The book "Eastern Electric" by John Glover (2002) describes the Class 91 upgrade (which took place at that time) as including the provision of ETCS equipment. How much more work would have to be done to the locomotives, if they are to be equipped with ERTMS?

The new signalling is not going to magically allow 140mph running. Flat crossings (including the infamous example at Newark) will likely have to be eliminated, the line straightened and widened where only two or three tracks to cater for slower traffic... At least with IC225 and our InterCity EMUs, it shouldn't be difficult to enable +15mph!

 

[Rhydgaled]

The book "Eastern Electric" by John Glover (2002) describes the Class 91 upgrade (which took place at that time) as including the provision of ETCS equipment. How much more work would have to be done to the locomotives, if they are to be equipped with ERTMS?

Are you sure the book said "provision of ETCS equipment" and not "provision for ETCS equipment"? I doubt very much that ETCS was fitted, but passive provision for it to be installed in future may have been (though were there any plans for Britain to adopt ETCS back in 2002?). The first UK stock to receive ETCS were probably the Cambrian line Class 37s (class 97s) and ATW's class 158s.

ERTMS I think involves just two componets, GSM(R) radio and ETCS. I believe latter is more than just a signalling system, all the train protection business is done by that too so the work to install it is rather significant and hit the ATW 158's reliability a bit.

The new signalling is not going to magically allow 140mph running. Flat crossings (including the infamous example at Newark) will likely have to be eliminated, the line straightened and widened where only two or three tracks to cater for slower traffic... At least with IC225 and our InterCity EMUs, it shouldn't be difficult to enable +15mph!

IC225s have run at 140mph on the ECML before, and flashing green aspects were added to some signals to authorise 140mph running. The trouble was that it was decided that signal sighting at 140mph (particular distingushing green from flashing green at a guess) was not reliable enough, so the 125mph restriction was put back (I think there's a 140mph linespeed board in the national railway muesum). Therefore the line doesn't need straightening and the flat crossings shouldn't be a problem either. As I said, the problem is likely to be pathing faster trains alongside the slower ones (where your widening point comes in I suppose).

 

[junglejames]

It wasn't an official name, just an enthusiast portmanduau of Aldelante and Pendolino. 180 with 390 traction. I believe Alstom were touting it as a lower cost Electric IEP alternative.

And there are non-tilt Pendolinos on the continent - if you want a 125mph Express Alstom will sell you a "New Pendolino" with the tilt removed.

I know its not an official name. Im just saying its a stupid sounding name. Plus one that makes no sense. Taking part of the pendolino name when the train will not be tilting.

Plus, looking on Alstoms site on the pendolino, and it just goes on about their tilting trains. Which backs up what I say regarding the word pendolino- It is the name for a tilting train made by Fiat (now Alstom). Starting about in Italy I believe.
Yes Alstom will sell you the body found on a tilting train, and put conventional bogies underneath it. No doubt. Alstom will sell you pretty much anything you want if you show them the cash (and if it is physically possibly(hint hint Mr Baker)). But it doesnt make it a pendolino. It just means it has the same body as can be found on a pendolino somewhere in the world.

 

[D365]

Are you sure the book said "provision of ETCS equipment" and not "provision for ETCS equipment"? I doubt very much that ETCS was fitted, but passive provision for it to be installed in future may have been (though were there any plans for Britain to adopt ETCS back in 2002?). The first UK stock to receive ETCS were probably the Cambrian line Class 37s (class 97s) and ATW's class 158s.

Yes, that is right - misquoted the book, sorry.

ERTMS I think involves just two componets, GSM(R) radio and ETCS. I believe latter is more than just a signalling system, all the train protection business is done by that too so the work to install it is rather significant and hit the ATW 158's reliability a bit.

IC225s have run at 140mph on the ECML before, and flashing green aspects were added to some signals to authorise 140mph running. The trouble was that it was decided that signal sighting at 140mph (particular distingushing green from flashing green at a guess) was not reliable enough, so the 125mph restriction was put back (I think there's a 140mph linespeed board in the national railway muesum). Therefore the line doesn't need straightening and the flat crossings shouldn't be a problem either. As I said, the problem is likely to be pathing faster trains alongside the slower ones (where your widening point comes in I suppose).

Fair enough, but for long-term regular 140mph running, it would be better to make improvements where needed, as you did say.

I know its not an official name. Im just saying its a stupid sounding name. Plus one that makes no sense. Taking part of the pendolino name when the train will not be tilting.

It's just an unofficial nickname based on how the design is reported to combine le 390 mechanics, sans tilt, avec le body de 180. Sorry for slipping into the Alstom-native French there for a moment, but there's no need to get worked up about it.

Plus, looking on Alstoms site on the pendolino, and it just goes on about their tilting trains. Which backs up what I say regarding the word pendolino- It is the name for a tilting train made by Fiat (now Alstom). Starting about in Italy I believe.
Yes Alstom will sell you the body found on a tilting train, and put conventional bogies underneath it. No doubt. Alstom will sell you pretty much anything you want if you show them the cash (and if it is physically possibly(hint hint Mr Baker)). But it doesnt make it a pendolino. It just means it has the same body as can be found on a pendolino somewhere in the world.

Alstom bought FIAT Ferroviaria and thereby the Pendolino. If they call a non-tilting version a Pendolino, it's a Pendolino.

 

[Eagle]

Of course Adelante was a nickname made up by FGW when they were introduced. Alstom called them Coradia High Speed.

(Similarly Bombardier's name for the 222s was just "Voyager", or perhaps unofficially "New Voyager".)

 

[junglejames]

Alstom bought FIAT Ferroviaria and thereby the Pendolino. If they call a non-tilting version a Pendolino, it's a Pendolino.

But they dont call a non tilting train a pendy. They only call the tilting ones a pendy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course Adelante was a nickname made up by FGW when they were introduced. Alstom called them Coradia High Speed.

(Similarly Bombardier's name for the 222s was just "Voyager", or perhaps unofficially "New Voyager".)

Its the combining 2 names to make one name (especially when one doesnt make sense) that i was getting at.

But hey, perhaps im just a boring moaning old fart. Yep, thats more like it.

Now, wheres that AdePretendispaceship?

 

[D365]

But they dont call a non tilting train a pendy. They only call the tilting ones a pendy.

Settled then.

...Now, wheres that AdePretendispaceship?

Now that's more like it!

 

[7griffinjack]

Now that electrification is looking promising what do people think? And will units be available in time for city of culture if the wires manage to be?

 

[BantamMenace]

Whatever they procure will need to be ertms ready as well with that due to come online between kings cross and Doncaster by 2019ish

 

[455driver]

Whatever they procure will need to be ertms ready as well with that due to come online between kings cross and Doncaster by 2019ish

And they will get it working right by about 2119ish!

The simple ERTMS systems we have in this Country at the moment dont work very well so I would say the chances of them working on a line as complicated as the ECML with its many conflicting movements and junctions are minimal!

 

[anthony263]

Not forgetting the GWML out of Paddington which is just as congested