Hull to Scunthorpe direct line

[BenS]

Would there be a market to justify a direct train from Hull to Scunthorpe and perhaps then on to Grimsby and Cleethorpes? Currently the journey requires a change of train at Doncaster.

I think to make it possible there might need to be an extra junction created to join the line through Thorne North and the line through Thorne South.

 

[Starmill]

Surely it would make far more sense to just improve the 350? Currently the end to end time is around 1h20m, which realistically the train won't beat.

 

[JonathanH]

Currently the end to end time is around 1h20m, which realistically the train won't beat.

Unless a tunnel was built under the Humber. It is a shame the Victorians didn't bequeath one to later generations.

How did it end up that a Humber Bridge was built rather than a Humber Tunnel?

 

[BenS]

Surely it would make far more sense to just improve the 350? Currently the end to end time is around 1h20m, which realistically the train won't beat.

Hull to Thorne North is 44 minutes.

Thorne South to Scunthorpe is 22 minutes.

So even with the Humber Bridge, a direct train - which would need some engineering work to be possible - could beat the bus.

 

[mike57]

I dont think passenger numbers would ever justify a direct train. A look at the traffic flow over the Humber Bridge tells you that its not a journey that a lot of people are wanting to make, its rarely busy compared with other UK esturary crossings.

The work required to link Thorne North and South would probably run into £100m+.

Maybe as trial put on a proper express version of the 350 bus, with through ticketing and showing in journey planners with connections planned and maintained, and see how much patronage that attracts. Journey time could probably be reduced to around 1hr by sticking to main roads, i.e. A63/A15/M180, but calling at Barnetby station to accomodate passengers heading for Grimsby/Cleethorpes

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe as trial put on a proper express version of the 350 bus, with through ticketing and showing in journey planners with connections planned and maintained, and see how much patronage that attracts.

Was there not, at one time, a Stagcoach Express service, 909, on the Doncaster - Scunthorpe - Hull axis that simply couldn't compete with the fact that people prefer to travel by train rather than coach. When was that axed?

 

[mike57]

Was there not, at one time, a Stagcoach Express service, 909, on the Doncaster - Scunthorpe - Hull axis that simply couldn't compete with the fact that people prefer to travel by train rather than coach. When was that axed?

I am not sure, maybe someone from Hull could elaborate. Thing is the only bit of that route that would not be covered by existing rail services is Scunthorpe - Hull, and for Doncaster Hull times would be less competive than a direct route

 

[Starmill]

Hull to Thorne North is 44 minutes.

Thorne South to Scunthorpe is 22 minutes.

So even with the Humber Bridge, a direct train - which would need some engineering work to be possible - could beat the bus.

I doubt very much you'd get a slot that lines up between them perfectly, so you'd end up with at least a few minutes' pathing time. Maybe overall you could shave 5 minutes off the current bus time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2024 ==

Unless a tunnel was built under the Humber. It is a shame the Victorians didn't bequeath one to later generations.

Is it though? How much demand is there realistically?

 

[Failed Unit]

Could you change at Hatfield and Stainforth instead or does the slower service negate the benefit to going to Doncaster on a faster one.

But I agree if the demand existed, it would be had to beat the bus, the motorway network is rarely busy around there. For Grimsby I will assume the humberlink bus from Barton on Humber still runs. However agian it is slow as you are 45 minutes getting to Barton-on-Humber.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it though? How much demand is there realistically?

None. There is no chance of such a tunnel being built now.

The point I was making was that the opportunity to build a tunnel may have been in the past, but guess there was no goods transfer across the Humber that warranted it at the time.

 

[Failed Unit]

None. There is no chance of such a tunnel being built now.

The point I was making was that the opportunity to build a tunnel may have been in the past, but guess there was no goods transfer across the Humber that warranted it at the time.

It is strange from the demand point of view, living in the area when I was younger it was the tolls that really put people off going to Hull. You tended to go to other cities. However not sure if it was free if someone from Grimsby would chose to go to Hull over say Sheffield / Leeds.

 

[BenS]

I doubt very much you'd get a slot that lines up between them perfectly, so you'd end up with at least a few minutes' pathing time. Maybe overall you could shave 5 minutes off the current bus time.

Would it make much difference if the route between Hull and Sheffield gets electrified? That has been suggested as part of the Hull devolution deal - although that doesn't mean it will necessarily happen anytime soon.

 

[Failed Unit]

How much demand do you envisage? I just can’t see it. Hull doesn’t really have a great connection opportunity that can’t be achieved via Doncaster.

 

[Starmill]

None. There is no chance of such a tunnel being built now.

The point I was making was that the opportunity to build a tunnel may have been in the past, but guess there was no goods transfer across the Humber that warranted it at the time.

Certainly nothing that couldn't have gone by boat.

 

[JD2168]

Was there not, at one time, a Stagcoach Express service, 909, on the Doncaster - Scunthorpe - Hull axis that simply couldn't compete with the fact that people prefer to travel by train rather than coach. When was that axed?

Yes it used to extend through to Sheffield via Meadowhall. It was at one stage operated by bendy bus style coaches under the Stagecoach Express brand. It went in the early 2000’s.

There was a relaunch in the 2010’s between Doncaster & Scunthorpe via Lakeside Shopping operated with B10M’s but did not last very long.

 

[Grimsby town]

None. There is no chance of such a tunnel being built now.

The point I was making was that the opportunity to build a tunnel may have been in the past, but guess there was no goods transfer across the Humber that warranted it at the time.

While I don't see a tunnel being built currently as the current government I'd fairly anti infrastructure, particularly public transport infrastructure, I do think a tunnel would be viable. The combined population of North East Lincolnshire, North Lincolnshire, and Lincoln is around 450,000 and the population of the Hull urban area is around 500,000. That's a significant population that essentially had none existent public transport connections. A rail tunnel could quite easily achieve a 30 minute journey time between Hull and Grimsby, and a Hull to Lincoln in around an hour. That's quicker than the car journey between those places.

Cost wise I'd estimate it'd be cheaper than £500m. All of the stations already exist. The connecting lines exist on both the north and south bank, although its possible they would need to be upgraded. A tunnel was built under the humber for £100m a few years ago so it's definitely possible.

Hull and Grimsby are fairly intergrated, with Grimsby being somewhat dependent on Hull for higher education and health services. Yet the transport connections have always been awful. There used to be an express bus service between Grimsby and Hull but this gradually got intergrated with local bus services. It takes around 90 minutes today. Its also been under threat of disappearing altogether. The barton line has been awful for years with poor connections, expensive fares and terrible reliability. Its not really a surprise the humber bridge is not overly well used because of you commute from Grimsby to Hull and don't have access to your car for a day, the alternatives are non existent. That doesn't create a successful, intergrated economy.

 

[BenS]

Hull and Grimsby are fairly intergrated, with Grimsby being somewhat dependent on Hull for higher education and health services. Yet the transport connections have always been awful.

This is one of the things that prompted my initial post. Hull, Goole, Scunthorpe, and Grimsby hospitals are moving towards closer integration with each other - meaning that staff, patients and visitors may be more likely to have to travel between these areas.

 

[AlastairFraser]

You could achieve most of the same objective with an integrated express bus Hull - Barton-upon-Humber station - Barnetby (for connections to Scunthorpe and further west) - Grimsby, instead of a train or bus Hull - Scunthorpe.
Even without rail ticket integration, just timetabling the bus to meet connections at Barnetby to the west would be good enough.

 

[HullRailMan]

A degree of integration already exists as through tickets can be bought for the bus from Hull to Barton and then the train on to Grimsby/Cleethorpes - this combination however only takes around 5 minutes less than staying on the bus all the way to Grimsby and costs around £46 v’s £2 on the bus.

Reducing the bridge tolls has stimulated some demand with Barton seeing a housing boom as it has become financially viable to live there and commute to the Hull area.

The reality is that the demand to link up Hull-Grimsby-Scunthorpe-Lincoln will never exist. The Humber area is relatively poor with a fairly insular population. Hull has virtually nothing in terms of shopping or leisure to entice anyone from south of the river. Despite the past attempts to integrate the north and south bank, it simply doesn’t exist. People in Hull are drawn to York/Leeds and the south bank to Doncaster/Sheffield/Nottingham.

 

[AlastairFraser]

A degree of integration already exists as through tickets can be bought for the bus from Hull to Barton and then the train on to Grimsby/Cleethorpes - this combination however only takes around 5 minutes less than staying on the bus all the way to Grimsby and costs around £46 v’s £2 on the bus.

See, this is where the express service would work for commuters from Barrow/connections from Barnetby/Grimsby.
£2 is a reasonable fare that makes public transport more attractive than the road network, especially with the Humber Bridge tolls.

 

[Grimsby town]

The reality is that the demand to link up Hull-Grimsby-Scunthorpe-Lincoln will never exist. The Humber area is relatively poor with a fairly insular population. Hull has virtually nothing in terms of shopping or leisure to entice anyone from south of the river. Despite the past attempts to integrate the north and south bank, it simply doesn’t exist. People in Hull are drawn to York/Leeds and the south bank to Doncaster/Sheffield/Nottingham.

But it's poor and insular due to the terrible transport links in the area. Economic integration doesn't happen overnight and for years it was constrained by the significant tolls on the Humber Bridge.

The South Humber Mainline is poor too and the ground conditions mean its unlikely the linespeeds will ever be upgraded. A humber rail tunnel would provide the opportunity for much significantly quicker, direct Grimsby to Leeds rail journeys particularly if plans to upgrade the Hull to Leeds rail line are realised.

A journey time of 30 minutes from Grimsby to Hull is easily achievable and reducing the Hull to Leeds journey time to 45 minutes has been considered in the past. The current Doncaster to Grimsby service takes 1 hour 5 minutes. A Doncaster to Leeds service takes 30 minutes.

 

[JD2168]

A degree of integration already exists as through tickets can be bought for the bus from Hull to Barton and then the train on to Grimsby/Cleethorpes - this combination however only takes around 5 minutes less than staying on the bus all the way to Grimsby and costs around £46 v’s £2 on the bus.

Reducing the bridge tolls has stimulated some demand with Barton seeing a housing boom as it has become financially viable to live there and commute to the Hull area.

The reality is that the demand to link up Hull-Grimsby-Scunthorpe-Lincoln will never exist. The Humber area is relatively poor with a fairly insular population. Hull has virtually nothing in terms of shopping or leisure to entice anyone from south of the river. Despite the past attempts to integrate the north and south bank, it simply doesn’t exist. People in Hull are drawn to York/Leeds and the south bank to Doncaster/Sheffield/Nottingham.

Hull for visitor attractions does have The Deep & it is also a gateway to further northwards up the East Coast to Bridlington, Filey & Scarborough. In the summer months as well the Scarborough service can get very full towards Hull.

 

[Grimsby town]

You could achieve most of the same objective with an integrated express bus Hull - Barton-upon-Humber station - Barnetby (for connections to Scunthorpe and further west) - Grimsby, instead of a train or bus Hull - Scunthorpe.
Even without rail ticket integration, just timetabling the bus to meet connections at Barnetby to the west would be good enough.

This would be a sensible first step towards better tranport in the area. Its incredibly frustrating that we don't have more bus and rail integration. Buses should be used to fill gaps in the rail network and Lincolnshire has a lot of gaps.

 

[HullRailMan]

But it's poor and insular due to the terrible transport links in the area. Economic integration doesn't happen overnight and for years it was constrained by the significant tolls on the Humber Bridge.

The South Humber Mainline is poor too and the ground conditions mean its unlikely the linespeeds will ever be upgraded. A humber rail tunnel would provide the opportunity for much significantly quicker, direct Grimsby to Leeds rail journeys particularly if plans to upgrade the Hull to Leeds rail line are realised.

A journey time of 30 minutes from Grimsby to Hull is easily achievable and reducing the Hull to Leeds journey time to 45 minutes has been considered in the past. The current Doncaster to Grimsby service takes 1 hour 5 minutes. A Doncaster to Leeds service takes 30 minutes.

I still make the point that this untapped demand you’re referring by to simply doesn’t exist - at best there may be a minimum flow from NE Lincs to Leeds. Nothing would ever justify the costs involved and linking two relatively poor places won’t make them suddenly become an economic success. Faster links to York/Leeds/Manchester for the north bank and Lincoln/Sheffield/Nottingham for the south bank is the best way forward.
You can drive Hull to Grimsby in 50 mins and the bridge toll is only £3 return. The connectivity already exists.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2024 ==

Hull for visitor attractions does have The Deep & it is also a gateway to further northwards up the East Coast to Bridlington, Filey & Scarborough. In the summer months as well the Scarborough service can get very full towards Hull.

Which is still, as I suggested, very little. Surely people in Lincs will mostly choose the Lincolnshire coastline for day trips just as people in Hull generally go to Bridlington/Filey/Scarborough/Hornsea. Grimsby, Scunthorpe and Lincoln all have comparable if not better retail offerings than Hull so that isn’t a huge draw either.

 

[Grimsby town]

I still make the point that this untapped demand you’re referring by to simply doesn’t exist - at best there may be a minimum flow from NE Lincs to Leeds. Nothing would ever justify the costs involved and linking two relatively poor places won’t make them suddenly become an economic success. Faster links to York/Leeds/Manchester for the north bank and Lincoln/Sheffield/Nottingham for the south bank is the best way forward.
You can drive Hull to Grimsby in 50 mins and the bridge toll is only £3 return. The connectivity already exists.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2024 ==


Which is still, as I suggested, very little. Surely people in Lincs will mostly choose the Lincolnshire coastline for day trips just as people in Hull generally go to Bridlington/Filey/Scarborough/Hornsea. Grimsby, Scunthorpe and Lincoln all have comparable if not better retail offerings than Hull so that isn’t a huge draw either.

Grimsby/Scunthorpe have better retail offerings than Hull? Have you ever been to Grimsby? The retail offering is significantly worse than Hull. Not sure where you get that the south bank had huge integration with Lincoln and Nottingham too. Sheffield and Meadowhall are definitely draws but the transport links to Lincoln and Nottingham by both road and rail have historical been incredibly poor. The rail service has improved from Grimsby to Lincoln/Nottingham but still isn't great. Lincoln's development is largely confined to rhe last 2 decades, so historically there was little travel from Grimsby to Lincoln. That is changing however.

Yes there's road links between Grimsby and Hull but large proportions of the population don't have cars and a journey from Cleethorpes to Hull can be significantly longer due to traffic in both urban areas.

As rail projects go a south bank to Hull tunnel ticks most of the boxes.

• Capacity exists for services
• It links places that suffer from deprivation and therefore need leveling up
• It would create a service that is competitive with road journey times on multiple flows
• Land purchase is relatively simple and tunneled nature means that nimyism will be minimal
• It connects two large urban areas.

It won't be cheap but at a couple of £100m, it's a lot cheaper than HS2, TRU and NPR (all of which should happen) and even cheaper than proposals such as Skipton to Colne and Aberystwyth to Carmarthen which link far smaller populations.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This would be a sensible first step towards better tranport in the area. Its incredibly frustrating that we don't have more bus and rail integration. Buses should be used to fill gaps in the rail network and Lincolnshire has a lot of gaps.

Especially with the straight and flat roads Lincs has!

 

[Falcon1200]

I do think a tunnel would be viable.

Depends what is meant by viable! I take it to mean that income from fares would cover the initial construction and ongoing operating costs, which I don't believe would be the case, ever.

I still make the point that this untapped demand you’re referring by to simply doesn’t exist

Indeed; A couple of years ago I took the Hull-Scunthorpe bus, purely to travel over the Humber bridge. It was a single decker, and nowhere near full at any point on the journey.

 

[Grimsby town]

Depends what is meant by viable! I take it to mean that income from fares would cover the initial construction and ongoing operating costs, which I don't believe would be the case, ever.



Indeed; A couple of years ago I took the Hull-Scunthorpe bus, purely to travel over the Humber bridge. It was a single decker, and nowhere near full at any point on the journey.

No that isn't the definition of viability used for UK infrastructure projects and I don't believe it would meet those parameters. That makes it a complete non-starter with this government.

I also don't think the current bus services are a good estimation of demand. They're simply too slow to be competitive. Personally I'm not sure Scunthorpe to Hull will be the biggest market anyway. You can be in Meadowhall from Scunthorpe in 50 minutes which is quicker than the current bus service and not much slower than a theoretical rail service via a tunnel, Ulceby, and Barnetby.

The benefit is Grimsby to Hull in the main where a train would be competitive with car journey times and it would be hugely quicker than the public transport connection time to other large cities. Sheffield takes 100 mins, Leeds close to 120 mins inculding an interchange, and Nottingham 105 mins. That's competivte with the current public transport connections from Grimsby to Hull, but would be nowhere near a rail tunnel journey time.

 

[snowball]

I find suggestions in this thread that the north and south banks of the Humber are an integrated whole interesting, given that the creation of Humberside was possibly the most hated local government reform ever and was later reversed.

 

[mrcheek]

I find suggestions in this thread that the north and south banks of the Humber are an integrated whole interesting, given that the creation of Humberside was possibly the most hated local government reform ever and was later reversed.

Its an interesting paradox. People hated "Humberside". Yet those in the north of Lincolnshire travel to Hull for work, shopping and leisure far more than they travel to Lincoln.

Similarly, the second most hated reform in 1974 was the creation of "Avon", a county combining the north of Somerset with Bristol. It was always hated, and like Humberside was eventually reversed. But people in Bath and Weston-super-Mare travel in vast numbers to Bristol for work and shopping. Not so much Taunton.