Hull to Holyhead service

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there a demand to be met by operating such a coast to coast service and if so, what would be the best possible route that it should take?

 

[gazthomas]

I can still remember Newcastle, York, Scarborough and Hull services to North Wales, it all ended with privatisation with services going no further than Manchester. Was that just to simplify the carve up of franchises, reliability/stock optimisation or because there was no demand. I suspect a bit of all 3.

In answer to your question, either via Leeds or Sheffield are the only options to me logically. Would there be demand now?

In the late 80's of course I recall with horror the end of long loco hauled trains with 150's and even 142's - imagine the latter on such a long service these days. Imagine how poorly received it would be. Then again the DoT and FGW think it is acceptable in the South West.

Gary

 

[sulli_os]

If it was done I'd say use it to supplement either the Sheffield - Manchester route (so Hull - Sheffield - Manchester - Chester - Holyhead) or the XC route between Birmingham and Sheffield.

Assuming, of course, it wasn't an open access thing...

 

[merlodlliw]

Is there a demand to be met by operating such a coast to coast service and if so, what would be the best possible route that it should take?

I only recall one service 6 days a week, Llandudno to Scarborough, this left Llandudno at 1400 and travelled via Derby, its was a DMU (6 coaches),it was expended from Derby in the 60s.

Saturday only summer specials ran from a great number of places, but I don't recall Newcastle, however there were a number of Butlins specials that ran via Afonwen.

As for demand, extra capacity to the East is required urgently as far as Manchester.


Bob

 

[Failed Unit]

The Hull - Holyhead used to be a 150/2 routed via Leeds and Manchester. It was really joining the TPE with the Manchester - Holyhead that exists today.

No idea if anyone travelled all the way but like many of the service flows may have existed between Chester and Leeds etc.

 

[gordonthemoron]

In the 1980s there were Newcastle-Holyhead/Bangor/Llandudno services depending on day & time of day

 

[cle]

I think as part of Northern Hub, a train from at least Leeds to Chester is planned - via Chat Moss I assume.

I would guess this might be faster than the current Llandudno - Picc service, maybe stopping only at Warrington and one or two more.

So if the flows are there, maybe it would be extended? Leeds - Chester would certainly be a quicker journey (I think Chester-Manc would be the fastest too most importantly).

Don't see any reason why this couldn't merge with the current Piccadilly - Hull? Chester and North Wales would probably find a York connection more useful though.

 

[185]

Common sense to run it to Hull, not York. Hull is a comparitively short transpennine service (1h 50).

 

[northwichcat]

It was really joining the TPE with the Manchester - Holyhead that exists today.

What Manchester-Holyhead service? The services now are Manchester-Llandudno or Cardiff-Holyhead.

Common sense to run it to Hull, not York. Hull is a comparitively short transpennine service (1h 50).

York would be better for adding connections in and out of the service over Hull.

what would be the best possible route that it should take?

They should build the Westerly Airport link and then you could have North Wales to Yorkshire via Manchester Airport without a reversal or backtracking.

 

[lincolnshire]

I can remember the service I think I even travelled on it all the way through.
That was when it was a proper joined up railway system.
You would struggle to do it these days as train crews will not know the route etc etc.
In the days of BR wasn,t there a through service from Hull to Brighton once a day?
The service was loco hauled and coaching stock and used the platforms with the crossover roads at the buffer stop ends to release the loco so to change ends and save having the shunter loco doing the same job.
Back in the days of BR when it was a propper joined up railway.

 

[caliwag]

Mid eighties in Hull, they installed release points in two of the bays. The ran 31 hauled rakes of up to 6 to Carlisle, Lancaster and Chester/Holyhead as I recall: some of the stock was cascaded/declassified first class compartment stock.
I believe it was some sort of sop to Local authorities relating to the threatened and imminent closure of S+C. In those days the stations on the Hull to Gilberdyke section were staffed and of course much of the line was quad track...a hangover of the days when queues of WDs would back up to Gilberdyake awaiting access to Fortune street yard etc.

Gilberdyke (vandal free in those days) was staffed latterly by two Ladies...had glorious hanging baskets and a working NE clock (wonder who got that). I joined the BR architects in '88 and station closure and removal of slow lines was one of the first jobs that the boys in Reggy rail were tasked with...an act of complete vandalism. I was with the Inter City group (looking down on the Regional lot and the small NSE group...we were working on big boys stuff like ECML electrification!

The 31s in Hull didn't last long, I suppose because S+C was reprieved. You could clock anything up to 4 or 5 31s at anyone time in the station area. Indeed when the station roof was being refurbed (as opposed to imminent demolition...sadly for the Divisional Engineers or their Philistine accountant mates, it was listed) some 31 hauled trains would arrive and depart from the South side excursion platforms, with the attendent 08 shunter to facilitate release.

Anybody got any photos of that period?

 

[fgwrich]

In the late 80's of course I recall with horror the end of long loco hauled trains with 150's and even 142's - imagine the latter on such a long service these days. Imagine how poorly received it would be. Then again the DoT and FGW think it is acceptable in the South West.

Gary

That would be the fault of the DfT...Its hardly fair blaming FGW For that one! Afterall, you can either have a 150 working an all stations Exeter to Penzance service, or no train at all...or slowing every HST services down to stop in their places...

As for the 142s, there not liked, but ironicly ideal for the Devon Metros Exmouth to Exeter to Paignton services - Far better suited than 153s & 158s - Something Wessex Trains even used on those services...

As for a Coast to Coast service - i doubt it, overall i think it would end up being more like a Cross Country type service where people will only be using it from stop to stop - Holyhead to Crewe, Crewe to Manchester etc than most of the way through...

But one things for sure - i wouldnt like to have to take a 150/2 All the way from Holyhead through to Scarborough or Hull! With those original low back seats!

 

[flymo]

Out of interest, some times from the '84-'85 timetable.

There were as mentioned quite a few services running across the country.
(This excludes the Newcastle services)

Westbound
From Scarborough - Bangor at 1100 & 1300 via York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Vic, Warrington BQ, Chester & Llandudno Jn. and various stations betwixt & between. Journey time end to end was approx 5h 25m. There was also a 1925 Scarborough - Holyhead via a similar routeing arriving at Holyhead at 0136. Sundays there was just one through service, 1445 Scarborough - Holyhead arr 2046. (6 hours + !!! now how did I ever miss that during my travels in the 80's ! )


Eastbound
From Llandudno there was a 1324 - Scarborough arr 1845 and a 1510 from Bangor SX (1517 from Llandudno SO) - Scarborough arr 2040. there was also an evening service from Bangor terminating at York. Sunday just had one service Holyhead - York.

Hope this is of interest.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The Hull - Holyhead used to be a 150/2 routed via Leeds and Manchester. It was really joining the TPE with the Manchester - Holyhead that exists today....

Manchester-Holyhead trains stopped running a few years ago (with the introduction of the West Coast High Frequency Timetable IIRC). The morning one had a good connection with the stoppers on the Chat Moss, but was timed only a few minutes ahead of a LLandudno service.

 

[merlodlliw]

What Manchester-Holyhead service? The services now are Manchester-Llandudno or Cardiff-Holyhead.



York would be better for adding connections in and out of the service over Hull.



They should build the Westerly Airport link and then you could have North Wales to Yorkshire via Manchester Airport without a reversal or backtracking.

Holyhead to Manchester services do run, three on Sundays,also services run bi hourly Holyhead to Birmingham Int as well
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the 1980s there were Newcastle-Holyhead/Bangor/Llandudno services depending on day & time of day

I don't recall these, having moved away in 1980 to Wrexham.

I do recall Central trains running a Hull /Chester via Wrexham, about 40 stops so it seemed, it usually was aborted at Birmingham due to late running.


Bob

 

[Waverley125]

I'd definitely support a Hull-Holyhead service, run as a fast Hull-Leeds, Leeds-Manchester and Manchester-Chester service. Something like:

Hull
Selby
Leeds
Huddersfield
Victoria
Warrington Bank Quay
Runcorn East
Chester
Rhyl
Llandudno Junction
Bangor
Holyhead

 

[emoaconr]

It would be a very welcome service, however in the incumbent franchising system, its basically impossible in both a bureaucratic and political sense.

The railways of North Wales are bound indefinately to the North West networks, but with a Cardiff-based franchisee in charge, I can't see happening on AW's watch [TP and NT extremely unlikely], therefore I don't know who'd want to cough up to provide such a service, presumably open-access or something as part of XC's franchise.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Central Trains ran a Pwllheli to Grimsby turn via Machynlleth/Shrewsbury/Birmingham using a 156 so North Wales stayed connected with the east coast after privatisation

 

[tbtc]

The railways of North Wales are bound indefinately to the North West networks, but with a Cardiff-based franchisee in charge, I can't see happening on AW's watch

I agree.

I think there's certainly demand from North Wales and Chester to have better links to North Western England/ Yorkshire, but this is the kind of service which won't fit neatly into franchise borders.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think there's certainly demand from North Wales and Chester to have better links to North Western England/ Yorkshire, but this is the kind of service which won't fit neatly into franchise borders.

I totally agree with your view above about the franchaise borders problem. That is now TWICE that I have agreed with you in one week.

I first posted this thread to evaluate current feeling amonst forum members on this particular rail route, as it was mentioned on another thread, as a future projection.

There has been an interesting selection of opinions on this matter.

 

[merlodlliw]

Perhaps the obsession with everything North/South will be less evident now we have a Minister from North East Wales with rail in his portfolio

I await with baited breath to see if the North/South airlink will be culled, this must feature high in the review. I have yet to meet anyone in the private sector who thinks this was a good idea.

We need more West/East rail capacity, two coach 158s between Chester & Holyhead are not fit for purpose in Summer months.


Bob

 

[tbtc]

We need more West/East rail capacity, two coach 158s between Chester & Holyhead are not fit for purpose in Summer months

I agree Bob, its just finding somewhere to "borrow" the units from (which lines could copy with a capacity decrease over the summer)

 

[exile]

Regular services from Yorkshire to North Wales only existed for a short period in the 80s. There were always Summer Saturdays from Leeds, Bradford etc to Llandudno.
There may be a very small market for people going from Leeds etc to the North Wales resorts or to Holyhead for the Irish ferry but TBH it isn't much of a problem to change at Manchester. Perhaps we could have the idea of trains run jointly by 2 TOCs - ie Arriva Wales and TPE.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder if there would be any European Community monies to part-fund a Holyhead to Hull service in terms of providing a rail link between member states in terms of Eire to Holyhead (ferry) and Hull to Western Europe(ferry).

These monies could be put towards any split franchaise costs.