Huge safety Gulf from UK to States

[fsmr]

Following the tragic crash involving a CSX loco ploughing through the film set of Midnight Rider killing a camera tech, video of the incident and more details printed in the mail What is incredible is the Gulf between the UK and the States. No UK Tv or film company would even dream of filming near the rail network without obligatory hi vis let alone on the tracks WITHOUT permission

The video was unveiled by ABC's 20/20 on Friday, more than eight months after the crash on the bridge spanning the Altamaha River, where filmmakers were allegedly shooting without permission.

The footage includes a breakdown of the train's position at various points leading up to the incident. At 26 seconds before impact, the vehicle needed a mile to stop and the engineer blew the whistle loudly.

Twenty-three seconds later, Hurt, Russell and two crew members were spotted running along the 30-foot high trestle toward the train in a bid to make it to safety.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-permission-narrow-bridgee.html#ixzz3HvR2cn1d
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[w0033944]

Following the tragic crash involving a CSX loco ploughing through the film set of Midnight Rider killing a camera tech, video of the incident and more details printed in the mail What is incredible is the Gulf between the UK and the States. No UK Tv or film company would even dream of filming near the rail network without obligatory hi vis let alone on the tracks WITHOUT permission

I'm not surprised. I follow the Youtube channel of a retired wagon repair and maintenance chap who's from Georgia, and I've seen footage of railway workers in orange waistcoat-type things which would be laughed-off any NR permanent way site as being totally inadequate for the job, and doing things that would give NR's H&S people grey hairs (so clearly unsafe that even I, as someone outside both the rail industry and H&S, can immediately see as unacceptable). There really does seem to be a libertarian, hands-off, minimum government approach over there.

 

[The Decapod]

Not such a huge safety gulf, perhaps.....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...r-pilot-hit-with-fine-after-train-buzzed.html

 

[21C101]

Following the tragic crash involving a CSX loco ploughing through the film set of Midnight Rider killing a camera tech, video of the incident and more details printed in the mail What is incredible is the Gulf between the UK and the States. No UK Tv or film company would even dream of filming near the rail network without obligatory hi vis let alone on the tracks WITHOUT permission

Away from the "East Coast Main Line" speeds are generally 70mph or less and services very infrequent (1 or 2 per day) with most lines unfenced and sometimes going along the middle of a towns main street (1min25 onwards) and people AIUI able to wander along them.

So its perhaps a case of horses for courses.

 

[theageofthetra]

Jack London Square in Oakland:- Imagine this in the UK-Amtrak Trains in Oakland Jack London Square: http://youtu.be/ITv7-i-L9JY

 

[Rapidash]

There really does seem to be a libertarian, hands-off, minimum government approach over there.

There's a reason why many of our fellow countrymen flee over there Can't say I see the attraction myself, but for some people the grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[21C101]

Jack London Square in Oakland:- Imagine this in the UK-Amtrak Trains in Oakland Jack London Square: http://youtu.be/ITv7-i-L9JY

Rather puts the attack of the vapours when anyone suggests reinstating the level crossing in Uckfield High Street into perspective.

 

[The Decapod]

Repeated blasting of a very loud horn, plus a continuously clanging loud bell on the train and another one on the crossing - perhaps 'health and safety' in America is more about 'audio' than 'visual'.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Repeated blasting of a very loud horn, plus a continuously clanging loud bell on the train and another one on the crossing - perhaps 'health and safety' in America is more about 'audio' than 'visual'.

Definitely, although that wouldn't work over here, as the station announcements would simply drown it out.

 

[Hattermick]

Definitely, although that wouldn't work over here, as the station announcements would simply drown it out.

Maybe Crossrail should have gone down Oxford Street then we would of had our own version of JLS hehe...

 

[fsmr]

If you scroll the DM article, there is a scan of the letter sent to the film co in reply to request, by CSX declining permission to film and advising to contact a smaller network

Of course over here we are lucky to have many heritage lines that are able to accommodate such filming requests for a small fee

Given what some perceive as draconian laws to protect the rail network from trespass in the UK , I really cant think anyone would try and film a high profile movie on one without permission. Knowing the litigation culture stateside, I hope the movie makers have deep pockets

 

[sbt]

There really does seem to be a libertarian, hands-off, minimum government approach over there.

I have to say, as a regular reader of NTSB reports on all transport modes, that you statement is true in some aspects. In other aspects they have much more government - in any given area they will often have regulatory agencies at both State and Federal levels, sometimes there is also what is in effect a 'Trade Association' setting regulations beside those. Things get really complicated when an accident involves two or more states, who may have significantly different regulartory ageranements and laws. Then you get cases like the railways that cross in and out of Canada... Regulatory bodies also seem to proliferate - for example a completely different set of laws and regulators apply to 'Railroads' and 'Rapid Transit'.

Even who investigates gets complicated - for example the NTSB only gets involved in an a maritime or inland waterways investigation id there is some likelihood of criticism of a federal organisation. Otherwise its down to the Coastguard (who are also the regulators and enforcers) or H&S bodies at state level. The same, to some extent, arrangement exists on the railways - the NTSB only gets involved in what they deem to be the most serious cases, which doesn't include all fatalities for example. The rest of the time its down to the states. The whole system is fragmented and confusing.

But the culture is definitely different. For example the same signal can mean different things depending who owns the line a train is running on - there are even cases where a depot is an isolated island of different signalling principles amount another companies lines. And its the drivers fault if an accident occurs because they get confused. In other places routes can lack signals at all, relying on dispatchers directions, time intervals and 'see and avoid' - for lines whose main traffic is long trains of hazardous goods.

We are used to thinking of the US as being advanced. Yet nothing like the track recording trains in use in the UK seem to be used in the US - busy lines are 'inspected' from a Road/Rail vehicle on another track by a bloke who is also expected to be inspecting the line they are on at the same time. The lines are permitted to be 30ft apart. So you get things like a major roll-over type derailment on an intensively used commuter line because a fractured fishplate between two pumping sleepers is missed. Or you get trains carrying the (very explosive) boosters for the Shuttle rolling over because of the failure of a wooden viaduct.

Sometimes they get things moving in the right direction, but only on a particular line or company. The system recently introduced, in one area only, whereby possessions cannot be released from the electronic signalling system without a code known only to the trackside staff (until they talk to the signaller to authorise giving up the possession) seems a good one. I have no idea how it works but I suspect the trackside staff have a key generator that gives them pairs of keys linked by a cryptographic system, one is required by the signaller to allow the possession to be set up and the other to remove it. But then the reason it was introduced was after an unsupervised trainee signaller removed a possession for reasons that he was later unable to explain - a man died as a result.

 

[najaB]

Thanks for a very informative post, but my inner geek can't let this go uncorrected:

Or you get trains carrying the (very explosive) boosters for the Shuttle rolling over because of the failure of a wooden viaduct.

Solid fuels aren't, and can't be, explosive. While you may have seen videos showing solid rocket motors explode, those are caused by the casing failing due to overpressure.

The Shuttle SRM used a segmented case (so that it could be transferred by rail) and the ends of each segment were essentially open to the air until it was stacked in Florida. If they had been involved in a rail accident that caused the fuel to ignite it would have burned furiously but could not have exploded.

 

[talltim]

I think the safety culture is just different. The example in the OP if more to do with public attitude to rail safety than internal rail safety policies., after all is it the rail operators fault if someone sets up a film shot on a live line despite them denying permission?
Signalling is different, but not nessasarily better worse. It IS very confusing coming from a UK perspective.
Another thing to consider is that rule vary greatly between companies, the class one railroads will be as strict as any here, but the shortlines may not.
However, some things are safer. Consider that all trains in the US have had to be fully fitted with automatic brakes and buckeye couplings since 1911 (off the top of my head, may be a few years out). When did the last unfitted freight run in the Uk, was it the early 90s? We still have quite a lot of stock with chain and buffers, not good in a derailment

 

[Bletchleyite]

They also require passenger vehicles to be far stronger, whereas the European approach is more to prevent things hitting things in the first place. And in mainland Europe almost all passenger LHCS is still screw coupled with plenty of body-underframe stock still running around the place.

 

[duncanp]

You should also check out the South Shore line in Michigan City, Indiana, close to Chicago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PSyh-zWI1w

and see http://www.nictd.com/ for more details.

 

[Emyr]

How hard would it be to adapt the NMT, or the French or Japanese equivalents to run on and survey the US network?

 

[ac6000cw]

The big US railroads do run geometry and ultrasonic inspection trains (and probably automated visual inspection by now, but not sure about that), so not much different to Europe. Yes, a lot of manual track inspection is done from 'Hi-rail' pick-up trucks, but they do take it seriously - whenever I've seen it in action it's done slowly with stops to do more detailed checks if needed. Apart from anything else, you don't want to be out walking the track in desert heat or well sub-zero cold if you can avoid it.

Trespassing on railroad property is a criminal offence in the US like it is here (and the railroads do have police or equivalent to enforce it).

As others have pointed out, the CSX railroad refused permission for filming, so whoever decided to take the risk and attempt to film anyway on a working railway was so irresponsible it beggars belief....

(and yes, US enthusiasts consider European hook/link/side buffer couplings - correctly - as archaic).

 

[najaB]

How hard would it be to adapt the NMT, or the French or Japanese equivalents to run on and survey the US network?

Physically they would need very little in the way of adaptation, however it appears that there's no will for it - they're quite happy with doing things the way they currently do.

 

[b0b]

You should also check out the South Shore line in Michigan City, Indiana, close to Chicago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PSyh-zWI1w

and see http://www.nictd.com/ for more details.

As someone that escaped to 'this side', I've been on the South Shore. It's also interesting in Michigan City where a road crosses the railway at a 4 way stop - yes the train has to stop too and wait for its turn!

I believe they're working on re-routing as much as possible off the surface street tho.

 

[Taunton]

Here's a US approach - passengers have to cross the running lines from the station entrance (on the left) to the main departure platform (on the right).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Io9a-gG-Y

Then look what happens.

 

[ac6000cw]

Here's a US approach - passengers have to cross the running lines from the station entrance (on the left) to the main departure platform (on the right).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Io9a-gG-Y

Then look what happens.

Note that from the commentary and the video there is a pedestrian barrier (in the down position) and flashing red lights (facing the direction the people have come from) which the passengers have completely/deliberately ignored....

This is the Google street view of the same location - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.4...3m5!1e1!3m3!1sRUKHIWgatZwAAAQWmJKBgQ!2e0!3e11

The setup at Redwood City looks much safer than at a UK station near me, with the only access between the platforms via an AHB road crossing (nothing to physically stop anyone walking past the ends of the half-barriers) - on a double track mainline with frequent fast non-stop trains....

 

[najaB]

The setup at Redwood City looks much safer than...

It's the safest way of cheaply dealing with a patently unsafe setup. The safe way of dealing with a ticket office and platform on either side of an express track would be a bridge or subway.

 

[21C101]

It's the safest way of cheaply dealing with a patently unsafe setup. The safe way of dealing with a ticket office and platform on either side of an express track would be a bridge or subway.

Frankly it is no more unsafe than a zebra crossing on a 40mph road with articulated lorries (and probably a lot more safe), its just that double standards apply when it comes to Railways.

The argument (leaving aside Driver stress) is how much taxpayers money is it proper to spend to try and prevent idiots getting themselves Darwin awards and why do we think it proper to spend vastly more money because the moving vehicle is on rails rather than tarmac?

Even the driver stress is a bit tenuous - lorry drivers get just as stressed if involved in fatal RTAs, and these days then face almost certain arrest and having to prove their innocence.

 

[ac6000cw]

It's the safest way of cheaply dealing with a patently unsafe setup. The safe way of dealing with a ticket office and platform on either side of an express track would be a bridge or subway.

I entirely agree that the safest way is bridge/subway/lifts - my comment was comparative on the two situations I mentioned.

 

[najaB]

Frankly it is no more unsafe than a zebra crossing on a 40mph road with articulated lorries (and probably a lot more safe), its just that double standards apply when it comes to Railways.

Disagree for three reasons:

1. The train in the clip appeared to be going a lot faster than 40mph
2. Trucks have much shorter stopping distances, and can swerve (to a certain extent)
3. A road crossing presents less of a trip hazard than an apparently hoppable barrier and train tracks.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Disagree for three reasons:

1. The train in the clip appeared to be going a lot faster than 40mph
2. Trucks have much shorter stopping distances, and can swerve (to a certain extent)
3. A road crossing presents less of a trip hazard than an apparently hoppable barrier and train tracks.

Agree completely.

To emphasise point 3 a little.

A road crossing is generally a small, shallow ramp from the footpath onto the road, and a smooth, almost level road to another small shallow ramp onto the other footpath. The road surface will generally not be slippy, even in the wet.

That railway crossing will have a barrier (which is obviously not high enough to present a suitable obstacle to be a deterrent), which if you get wrong when hopping over can make you faceplant into the path of a train.

Slippy rails (especially in the wet), a gap between the inside of the rail and the covering over the sleepers that you can trip over.

For the small cost of a footbridge vs the potential lives saved, it's a no brainer.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Not such a huge safety gulf, perhaps.....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...in-buzzed.html

Please explain how this is relevant?! Unless you are making a general point about flying in a Robinson, how does an experienced pilot getting footage of a train compare to people setting up film equipment and props on an active railway bridge?

 

[LexyBoy]

Thanks for a very informative post, but my inner geek can't let this go uncorrected: Solid fuels aren't, and can't be, explosive. While you may have seen videos showing solid rocket motors explode, those are caused by the casing failing due to overpressure.

Solid fuels can very much be explosive! If we're just talking about propellants, then of course it is desirable that they burn in a controlled manner - this is a matter of design rather than nature. The same propellant that burns nicely in a rocket would cause an explosion if sufficiently confined, or in a granular form which allows combustion to propagate rapidly. Ammonium nitrate based formulations are capable of detonation under certain conditions.

 

[b0b]

Here's a US approach - passengers have to cross the running lines from the station entrance (on the left) to the main departure platform (on the right).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Io9a-gG-Y

Then look what happens.

This setup is pretty common in Chicago too on the Metra service, and yes, people do die because they cross tracks thinking its the train they just got off thats activating the barriers & lights etc. and get hit by a non-stop service going the other way.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...after-pedestrian-incident-20130319-story.html