Hudderfield Doubling back

[wellhouse]

There are two routes from Marsden or Slaithwaite to Manchester Stations; Direct and Any Permitted.

Any Permitted seems to be issued and accepted for doubling back at Huddersfield to use fast FTPE services. I sometimes ask for a ticket to Manchester via Huddersfield, and that is what I am sold.

There is an easement forbidding doubling back on a Route Direct ticket (which is surely forbidden anyway), but no easement explicitly granting the right to double back on an Any Permitted ticket.

What's that all about?

 

[sonic2009]

I suspect it might be an error, Route DIRECT is usually the shortest route between stations.

 

[furlong]

There is an easement forbidding doubling back on a Route Direct ticket (which is surely forbidden anyway),

Unfortunately, I think the drafting of the conditions of carriage might leave DIRECT open to different interpretations.

Notice how it does not say "shortest", nor does it use the 13(a)(i) definition based on not changing trains.

If travelling via Huddersfield is sometimes faster, could I argue that would count as "the most direct route" if it got me to Manchester earliest?

but no easement explicitly granting the right to double back on an Any Permitted ticket.

I don't think that would be needed either. The routeing points here would be Huddersfield and Manchester, and you shouldn't "double back" on the part of the route between them - after you arrived at Huddersfield - as per step 7 of the routeing guide instructions.

Understanding how the Easements ("relaxations of Routeing Guide rules to allow journeys that strict adherence to the rules would forbid") section was ever allowed to get into its current state is quite beyond me!

 

[kieron]

There are two routes from Marsden or Slaithwaite to Manchester Stations; Direct and Any Permitted.

Any Permitted seems to be issued and accepted for doubling back at Huddersfield to use fast FTPE services. I sometimes ask for a ticket to Manchester via Huddersfield, and that is what I am sold.

Under the rules, the any permitted ticket allows you to travel to Huddersfield and then use a valid should allow you to travel via Huddersfield and Hebden Bridge, but not to double back through Slaithwaite.

The easement you mentioned is a little strange as it specifies Manchester Piccadilly, but the tickets are all issued to Manchester Stations instead. Can someone going to Oxford Road travel via Huddersfield?

 

[beeza1]

Can someone going to Oxford Road travel via Huddersfield?

According to NRE yes, just checked Marsden to Oxford Road, one of the routes given is via HUD, both on the OUT and RTN £11.70 Off Peak Day Return, whilst a HUD to MCO is £12.00, yet another example of our weird and wonderful ticket pricing system.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Or maybe just evidence of how badly programmed the journey planners are?

Many of the easements are to try to fix bugs in the journey planners (that's why some make no sense). I can't see, from the online guide, how a Marsden (Yorks)-Manchester Stns ticket would be valid to double back via Huddersfield.

 

[beeza1]

Or maybe just evidence of how badly programmed the journey planners are?

Many of the easements are to try to fix bugs in the journey planners (that's why some make no sense). I can't see, from the online guide, how a Marsden (Yorks)-Manchester Stns ticket would be valid to double back via Huddersfield.

Most of us (Joe Public) probably use NRE to plan our journeys on the assumption the information supplied is correct, (it does state on the journey planner "only permitted routes are shown"), I have also checked on the TPE site and that also routes a Marsden to Oxford Road ticket via HUD, don't think a PAX buying a ticket off the TPE website would be very happy to be told their ticket isn't valid. Maybe it's your online guide that is wrong, mistakes do happen after all, even on the railways.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The online guide of which I speak is The Routeing Guide on ATOC's website, the same Routeing Guide that is referred to in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage to which all tickets are subject.

The TPE site will likely use the same data and probably has the same issues with journey planning. Journey planners are only as good as their programming.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It is the intention - and local custom and practice - that the Rte Any Permitted fares are valid to double back via Huddersfield to Piccadilly etc, whilst the Rte Direct are only valid for direct trains.

I believe the fares are gradually trying to be harmonised so the Any Permitted ones are at least the same as Huddersfield.

Why the relevant easements etc are not in place I do not know.

 

[furlong]

Under the rules, the any permitted ticket allows you to travel to Huddersfield and then use a valid should allow you to travel via Huddersfield and Hebden Bridge, but not to double back through Slaithwaite.

I still disagree.

Step 5
If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the
permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted
routes between routeing points.

Slaithwaite to Huddersfield (shortest route to routeing point satisfying fares check using single fares even if the ticket is a return)

Step 7
Identify the route to which the code(s) refers using the maps
Each code refers to a map. If a single code is indicated the route is via any
route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point
without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single
journey).

Huddersfield, through Slaithwaite, through Stalybridge (the other routeing point and which passes a fares check) to Manchester.

As far as I'm aware, the restriction on doubling back here only applies to the process that determines the permitted routes between the selected routeing points, not to the journey as a whole.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why the relevant easements etc are not in place I do not know.

I don't believe any easements are needed here.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....As far as I'm aware, the restriction on doubling back here only applies to the process that determines the permitted routes between the selected routeing points, not to the journey as a whole....

It says "without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey)". Note the "on a single journey" part.

 

[furlong]

It says "without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey)". Note the "on a single journey" part.

In the context of finding the permitted routes for a journey between two routeing points, which is all that section concerns - "a single journey between the two routeing points under consideration" if you like. Otherwise there would be many different sets of permitted routes between two given routeing points and a key benefit of using routeing points (with a fares check) in the procedure would be lost. Step 5 explains how to deal with any local elements of the route.

We expect ANY PERMITTED to be valid via Huddersfield, it seems to be priced on that basis, online journey planners appear to show the route, and I'd suggest the most natural interpretation of the routeing guide supports this.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

All the preceding uses of the term "journey" seem to imply travel from the origin to the destination, why do you think this definition changes in step 7?

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage require precise definition of the
routes that a customer may use for a particular journey. These routes are
known as "permitted routes". The National Routeing Guide enables users to
determine whether the proposed journey is via a "permitted route".

....

Where the timetable offers journey opportunities over a longer route which is
not covered by a through train service, the alternative options are included in
the Routeing Guide. This may offer the customer a choice of routes for the
same overall journey.If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the
journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to
choose any of the routes listed in the Guide.

Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used
for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

....

Step 4....

It is important that account is taken of the fare for the journey being made
as the fares manual may restrict the choice of routes by indicating a specific
route e.g) Sheffield to London via Chesterfield.

....

Step 6....

If the routeing code is "LONDON", for all journeys via London you will need to
cross reference routeing codes applicable "to London" with the code for the
"from London" leg of the journey.

If the routeing code is "LONDON", journeys include the cost of cross-London
transfer either by London Underground or Thameslink services. In all cases
the transfer points should be along the correct line of route given by the
‘permitted route’ map combinations.

Unless a ticket
specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to
use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the
Routeing Guide.....

 

[furlong]

The part in parentheses just explains what doubling back means in general in case the reader didn't know.

That step is not at all concerned with local travel to/from routeing points.

I think it is fundamental to how the routeing guide works for long-distance travel: it breaks up the journey into travel to/from appropriate routeing points and travel between those routeing points and considers each part independently, thereby reducing the complexity of the problem. In simplistic terms, you take a local service to a routeing point, a fast service between routeing points, then a local service to your destination. The fares check determines appropriate routeing points.

If someone took the view that the doubling back test applied to the whole journey, then that would take us back a step and would effectively mean Huddersfield was not an appropriate routeing point, leaving just Stalybridge, and there'd be little practical difference between DIRECT and ANY PERMITTED, and I'd want to ask why VIA HUDDERSFIELD wasn't introduced instead and how many more easements are missing in similar situations across the network.

 

[OwlMan]

Section f says (my bolding)

FINDING APPROPRIATE ROUTEING POINTS
Any routeing point can be used, provided it does not
. use routes not permitted for the journey
. cause doubling back (passing through the same station twice between origin and destination)
. make the journey double back through the origin or destination station unless the fare permits (for example Ealing Broadway to Swindon via London).
. allow travel by a route which does not satisfy the fare-check rule. This rule is explained in the box below.

 

[kieron]

I still disagree.

Sorry, I forgot how vague and inconsistent the routeing guide is about doubling back. The "routeing guide in detail" section seems to be more strongly opposed to doubling back than the instructions. And also to passing through a routeing point which fails the fare check, for that matter.

I don't think Slaithwaite-Manchester would be valid if you double back from Huddersfield as it fails the fare check for the "any permitted" fare, although it passes it for the "via Hebden Bridge" one.

Marsden-Manchester is a bit dearer, so may be valid doubling back at Huddersfield. Choosing Huddersfield as a routeing point does not "make the journey double back through" Marsden, as it leaves open the route via Hebden Bridge.

 

[furlong]

Section f says (my bolding)

And with my bolding:

FINDING APPROPRIATE ROUTEING POINTS
Any routeing point can be used, provided it does not

• use routes not permitted for the journey

So to find the appropriate routeing points, which is necessary before we can work out the permitted routes, we must first know the routes that are not permitted? Chicken and egg?

Section A (instructions) tells us how to use the routeing guide. Section F then demonstrates its use and includes examples intermingled with additional interpretative information of varying quality, I'd say.

Whereas Section A does seems to be generally applied and accepted in my opinion, I'd suggest the status of Section F is much less clear - more like guidance that may be adapted to specific circumstances (or ignored) than strict rules, perhaps? - and it seems to me that it is not unusual (even common practice?) for the industry not to follow everything in Section F rigidly if that would lead to an undesired outcome.

For example, Section F indicates that it is acceptable to allow a margin of up to 3 miles for shortest routes. If everything in section F is to be applied rigidly, why do some websites seemingly offer routes exceeding the shortest by well beyond this margin yet remain accredited?

Why do some accredited websites seemingly ignore the text you quoted from Section F and offer routes that double back between origin and destination such as the example we're considering here, which according to kwvr45 gives the intended outcome?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Marsden-Manchester is a bit dearer, so may be valid doubling back at Huddersfield.

Yes, I did the fares check using current fares for Marsden not Slaithwaite, substituting just before posting 20 pence short now. What a mess!

Choosing Huddersfield as a routeing point does not "make the journey double back through" Marsden, as it leaves open the route via Hebden Bridge.

Which isn't a mapped route so relies on the the VIA HEBDEN BRIDGE fare existing. (Permitted routes Marsden to Hebden Bridge plus permitted routes Hebden Bridge to Manchester.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Section f says (my bolding)

• 
  make the journey double back through the origin or destination station unless the fare permits (for example Ealing Broadway to Swindon via London).

I would actually interpret that as just another way of phrasing the fares check: "unless the fare from the origin is at least as high as the fare from the routeing point".

 

[craigwilson]

I would actually interpret that as just another way of phrasing the fares check: "unless the fare from the origin is at least as high as the fare from the routeing point".

I would just interpret it as meaning what the example says - i.e. only allowing doubling back through the origin/destination if the route restrictions allow.

 

[northwichcat]

there'd be little practical difference between DIRECT and ANY PERMITTED, and I'd want to ask why VIA HUDDERSFIELD wasn't introduced instead and how many more easements are missing in similar situations across the network.

Changing 'Any Permitted' to 'via somewhere' may not simplify things.

If you look at Knutsford-Newcastle the two alternative route options are Stockport, Manchester, Leeds, York and Stockport, Sheffield, York.

A Route:Manchester ticket will cost you £72.10 for an Off-Peak Return

A Routeheffield ticket will cost you £70.90 for an Off-Peak Return

There isn't a ticket for Route 'Any Permitted' so it would be simpler to say 'Any Permitted' instead of 'Route:Manchester' and consequently allow travel via Sheffield in one direction on the £72.10 ticket and travel via Manchester in the other.

If you say 'via Huddersfield' in the case of Slaithwaite to Manchester then you're adding the same complication. You can't do Slaithwaite-Huddersfield-Manchester for the outward journey and return on a direct train, unless you buy the 'direct' ticket and excess and the outward journey, which is more complicated for average Joe who doesn't know about excessing.

 

[furlong]

I would just interpret it as meaning what the example says - i.e. only allowing doubling back through the origin/destination if the route restrictions allow.

It uses the word fare. London is already a routeing point for Ealing Broadway and there is no fare routed VIA LONDON so that wouldn't help. (And we are trying to understand ANY PERMITTED here anyway not VIA or NOT VIA.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In answer to the point about excesses, tickets can be used on cheaper routes already, surely?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

LONG POST ALERT!

The part in parentheses just explains what doubling back means in general in case the reader didn't know....

So you choose to ignore it then?

....That step is not at all concerned with local travel to/from routeing points....

Does that change the definition of a journey?

....I think it is fundamental to how the routeing guide works for long-distance travel: it breaks up the journey into travel to/from appropriate routeing points and travel between those routeing points and considers each part independently, thereby reducing the complexity of the problem. In simplistic terms, you take a local service to a routeing point, a fast service between routeing points, then a local service to your destination. The fares check determines appropriate routeing points....

The Routeing Guide tells us how to find the Permitted Routes for a journey, it does this by breaking the Permitted Routes into smaller sections by way of Routeing Points and maps, there is no evidence that it divides the journey.

If someone took the view that the doubling back test applied to the whole journey, then that would take us back a step and would effectively mean Huddersfield was not an appropriate routeing point, leaving just Stalybridge,...

Step one - Routeing Points for Marsden (and Slaithwaite) are Huddersfield Group and Stalybridge.

Step two - Routeing Point for Manchester Stations is Manchester Group

Step three - No common Routeing Point.

Step four - Stalybridge is an appropriate Routeing Point firstly because it is obvious and secondly because it has a lower fare. Huddersfield could only be considered an appropriate Routeing Point for Marsden (and Slaithwaite) on the basis of the 'rte via Hebden Bridge' fare, for the sake of argument we will say it is an appropriate Routeing Point.

Step five - Both appropriate Routeing Points for Marsden (and Slaithwaite) have direct services over the shortest route.

Step six - Stalybridge-Manchester gives maps GM and MR (NOTE: Hebden Bridge does not appear on either of these maps). Huddersfield-Manchester gives us map GM.

(NOTE: Tickets routed via Hebden Bridge are not appropriate to travel via Stalybridge (but may be used that way if the fare is higher than an appropriate fare) and so routes via Hebden Bridge have been ignored for this example, though any higher fare would also be valid on routes via Hebden Bridge.)

Step seven - These maps give us routes of:

Huddersfield Group-Stalybridge-Ashton/Guide Bridge-Manchester Group (GM)
Stalybridge-Ashton/Guide Bridge-Manchester Group (GM)
Stalybridge-Guide Bridge-Manchester Group (MR)

The first would require the ticket holder to double back in a single journey and is therefore not permitted, the other two would not.

At what point have I gone back a step?

....and there'd be little practical difference between DIRECT and ANY PERMITTED, and I'd want to ask why VIA HUDDERSFIELD wasn't introduced instead and how many more easements are missing in similar situations across the network.

'Rte Any Permitted' costs more than the 'rte via Hebden Bridge' fare and is therefore valid via Hebden Bridge. 'Rte Direct' costs less than 'Rte via Hebden Bridge' fare and would therefore not be valid via Hebden Bridge.

And with my bolding:

FINDING APPROPRIATE ROUTEING POINTS
Any routeing point can be used, provided it does not

• use routes not permitted for the journey

So to find the appropriate routeing points, which is necessary before we can work out the permitted routes, we must first know the routes that are not permitted? Chicken and egg?....

You have taken them as an option, one or another, they are not, they must all be adhered to.

FINDING APPROPRIATE ROUTEING POINTS

Any routeing point can be used, provided it does not

• use routes not permitted for the journey
• cause doubling back (passing through the same station twice between origin and destination)
• make the journey double back through the origin or destination station unless the fare permits (for example Ealing Broadway to Swindon via London).
• allow travel by a route which does not satisfy the fare-check rule. This rule is explained in the box below.

 

[furlong]

The word "plus" in step 5 breaks it up, giving a little nod to the methodology of the original Book of Routes.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

STEP 5

Permitted routes

If both stations are routeing points, go to STEP 6.

If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the
permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted
routes between routeing points.

If both are related stations, use the shortest distance to the first routeing
point, followed by the permitted routes between the routeing points, then
finally the shortest route from the final routeing point.

Where there are local journey easements, these may permit use of a longer
route to and from the routeing points.

Where does it break up the journey?

 

[furlong]

Where does it break up the journey?

If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station,

which is the case we are considering

the permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point
plus
the permitted routes between routeing points.

So steps 6 and 7 are limited in scope to the second part of that, namely determining the permitted routes between the two routeing points.

Then step 7 is headed

Identify the route to which the code(s) refers using the maps

That's the limit of the scope of that step.
It says the code refers to the route i.e. once you've worked it out, it is something you can just look up next time. Given the same starting point for this step - the sets of codes for the maps for two specific routeing points - you will always get the same result.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

'Rte Any Permitted' costs more than the 'rte via Hebden Bridge' fare and is therefore valid via Hebden Bridge. 'Rte Direct' costs less than 'Rte via Hebden Bridge' fare and would therefore not be valid via Hebden Bridge.

So why does ANY PERMITTED exist priced above the Hebden Bridge fare, if it's not for the Marsden-Huddersfield-Stalybridge-Manchester route?

With the interpretation you're advocating wouldn't we require various easements across the network that aren't needed with the interpretation I believe was intended where the fares check is sufficient?

Another example:
Kensal Green to Rugby
Is travel via Euston and then Willesden Jn permitted or not? I'd say yes.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Step five is talking about Permitted Routes, the first two words after 'step 5' should give that away. Step 6 and 7 deal with the routes between Routeing Points. None of that changes what a journey is.

I can't say for definate why the 'any permitted' fare is still there but my guess would be fare distribution and historic reasons. I would suggest that the 'any permitted' and 'direct' fares came out of BR which had 'reasonable' routes rather than permitted ones. Naturally these fares would have a fares distribution between TPE and Northern. 'Rte Hebden Bridge' is a much more recent addition and most likely only give fares distribution to Northern.

The last example you give I would have to look up and I don't have time right now so I'll have a look later. My initial feeling would be no, but I'd have to double check easements and such.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Okay, so.....

Step One - Kensal Green has Routeing Points of London Group and Willesden Group.

Step Two - Rugby is a Routeing Point

Step Three - No common Routeing Points

Step Four - Willesden Junction is an obvious Routeing Point so no fares check is required, however if you did doubt it for some as yet unexplained reason, Willesden Junction passes as it has the same fares as Kensal Green. London Group passes for the Anytime (SOS) ticket, but fails for the Off-Peak (SVS) ticket. For the purposes of clarity and exploration, I shall take it that the passenger is on the SOS ticket.

Step Five - One is a related station so we have the shortest route to the Routeing Point followed by the mapped routes between Routeing Points.

Step Six - Willesden Junction to Rugby gives us 'London' (OV+LM) and LM, London Group to Rugby gives us LM.

Step Seven - These map combinations give us....

Willesden Junction-London-Bletchley-Northampton-Rugby
Willesden Junction-London-Bletchley-Rugby
Willesden Junction-Bletchley-Northampton-Rugby
Willesden Junction-Bletchley-Rugby
London Euston-Bletchley-Northampton-Rugby
London Euston-Bletchley-Rugby

The first two will fail the double back rule as Willesden Junction is only on the slow lines so you would have to pass back through Kensal Green (as a minimum).

The two which only head north would be fine.

The question would be, whether any of those other journeys double back through Kensal Green, Queens Park, Kilburn High Road and/or South Hampstead. Now as far as I am aware, the fast lines run down the side of those stations rather than specifically through them (and the fast lines don't appear on the NRES station maps).

So, fares permitting, I think travel via Euston may be okay provided that the slow lines are only used once (going into London) and provided that the Routeing Point used is London Group.

However, in answer to your question, travel via Euston and Willesden Junction stations could not be permitted as this would require a double back through Kensal Green, Queens Park, Kilburn High Road and/or South Hampstead station(s).

 

[furlong]

Surely the routeing guide does not expect the user to take any account of track layouts or have knowledge of which particular track any particular train will use at any particular time? Map LM shows that the route North from Euston passes through Willesden Junction and it must surely also be taken to pass through all the other intermediate stations, just as shown on other maps published for passenger use?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

the double back rule is 'passing through a station more than once in a single journey'. If the journey passes through a station more than once in a single journey it is doubling back.

The only way to simplify the situation with those north London stations is to say that regardless of which line you use, it passes through the station, this then forbids you going via London completely as you would be doubling back through every station, even though you are not actually passing through the station on the fast line.

 

[mm333]

There are two routes from Marsden or Slaithwaite to Manchester Stations; Direct and Any Permitted.

Any Permitted seems to be issued and accepted for doubling back at Huddersfield to use fast FTPE services. I sometimes ask for a ticket to Manchester via Huddersfield, and that is what I am sold.

There is an easement forbidding doubling back on a Route Direct ticket (which is surely forbidden anyway), but no easement explicitly granting the right to double back on an Any Permitted ticket.

What's that all about?

Is this a hangover from when there were no Huddersfield-Manchester stoppers on a Sunday, only Manchester-Greenfield and Marsden-Huddersfield. Didn't there used to be a easement that allowed travel via Huddersfield?

 

[34D]

The first two will fail the double back rule as Willesden Junction is only on the slow lines so you would have to pass back through Kensal Green (as a minimum).

Euston to Watford is a special grey area of its own, due to the degree of separation of the DC Lines.

Also, Willesden Jun does NOT have platforms on the slow lines, just on the DC lines.

The slow lines have platforms at Queens Park and Wembley Central (iirc).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Also, Willesden Jun does NOT have platforms on the slow lines, just on the DC lines.....

My excuse is that I was using Google Maps for my reference and it's not that easy to distinguish the names of lines on there, but the point remains the same whatever the lines are actually called.