hst's on trans pennine?

[stockport1]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/markamis/4226714224/in/set-72157623096557438

whats the story?
why does this route not get inter city type trains?
did deltics do line street york?

the tpe trains seem to short to me...

 

[Eagle]

I'd suggest it's actually heading for Scotland on the InterCity route. The date is pre-Windsor Link so trains from the Preston direction would all have gone into Victoria.


Transpennine North routes were always part of Regional Railways, for some reason.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, HSTs and Deltics have operated Newcastle Central <> Liverpool Lime St services in the 1980s, I do not know the details but I've seen quite a few photos of Deltics on the route shortly after they were withdrawn from the ECML (someone like theblackwatch will be able to post more info, I'm sure) but they didn't last long, perhaps 1 or 2 years? HSTs much less frequently, I did hear of an occasion when this happened. It would be harder these days but HSTs are cleared for the route.

As Eagle says, it's much more likely to be working to Glasgow/Edinburgh than Liverpool.

 

[stockport1]

Yes, HSTs and Deltics have operated Newcastle Central <> Liverpool Lime St services in the 1980s, I do not know the details but I've seen quite a few photos of Deltics on the route shortly after they were withdrawn from the ECML (someone like theblackwatch will be able to post more info, I'm sure) but they didn't last long, perhaps 1 or 2 years? HSTs much less frequently, I did hear of an occasion when this happened. It would be harder these days but HSTs are cleared for the route.

As Eagle says, it's much more likely to be working to Glasgow/Edinburgh than Liverpool.

thx.

im one of those maverick nutjobs that feels Manchester-Liverpool-Leeds... could be served better by something a little larger than pacers and sprinters....

and a possible tie in with the hs2 starting from the north...
y'know the first passenger line in the world should be at the cutting edge of technology still with 15-20 mins Liverpool-Manchester times.

But then I've never been one to be sensible

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm one of those maverick nutjobs that feels mcr-liv-leeds... could be served better by something a little larger than pacers and sprinters....

You mention three major cities in the North of England above and if the same situation existed in the South of England, you can be sure that trains of the correct type and length would be provided to serve cities with the conurbation sizes of all three of these areas.

I am old enough to hark back to the days of steam and being stood on platform 11 at Manchester Victoria when trains of many coaches in length ran the Newcastle-York-Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool service. So we did have proper sized trains at one time!!

 

[scarby]

the tpe trains seem to short to me...

I remember class 31s and a rake of coaches doing the TP route out of Scarborough for a while (mid 80s?).

Agreed - like with a lot of the modern network the problem is the sheer rigidity of train sizes - a 3 car 185 is fine most of the time but not at many peaks and in summer into Scarborough.

In the old days the answer was simple; they simply coupled a couple of DMUs togther at peaks to make 6 or 8 car sets. However, in the 21st century the network is so absurdly short of stock that they can't do this.

 

[tbtc]

You mention three major cities in the North of England above and if the same situation existed in the South of England, you can be sure that trains of the correct type and length would be provided to serve cities with the conurbation sizes of all three of these areas

...like the Sprinters from (Brighton) - Portsmouth - Southampton - Bath - Bristol (and over the border into Cardiff)?

To answer the OP, Deltics were used on some Transpennine routes towards the end of their life, partly because the HSTs on the ECML meant they weren't needed there - the stop/start nature of Transpennine services isn't ideal for Deltics (or HSTs), but it was a bit like putting 125mph 180s on routes around Manchester.

 

[driver9000]

Yes, HSTs and Deltics have operated Newcastle Central <> Liverpool Lime St services in the 1980s, I do not know the details but I've seen quite a few photos of Deltics on the route shortly after they were withdrawn from the ECML (someone like theblackwatch will be able to post more info, I'm sure) but they didn't last long, perhaps 1 or 2 years? HSTs much less frequently, I did hear of an occasion when this happened. It would be harder these days but HSTs are cleared for the route.

Deltics worked on the ECML right to the end without being sent to other routes. There were a handful of occasions at the end of their careers when to prevent cancellation they were sent off the ECML but this was rare. There is certainly a photo of one stood at Lime Street. Deltics saw no service after January 1982.

As for the HST, it looks incredibly clean. An advert was filmed using a blue set at Copy Pit and the amateur footage I've seen show the filming runs being done in the snow. It may. have been connected with this and the set was passing through Victoria heading to/returning from Copy pit. HSTs weren't introduced to Cross-country services until around 1982/83 and I'm sure any Intercity services into Victoria remained loco hauled at the time and remained so after the Windsor link opened.

 

[Bevan Price]

At least one HST worked into Liverpool Lime Street o a Trans Pennine service. Deltics were more common, but not exactly an everyday event.

Sunday WCML diversions via Manchester Victoria occurred during engineering work, but from memory, I think it was later than 1981 when HST's started to be used on services such as the Clansman (Euston - Inverness), or what became Cross Country Anglo Scottish services.

 

[Matt Taylor]

When the 'Executive' livery was introduced there was a PR shoot using the full set (43125 & 43126 I think) on the Copy Pit line, this would have been in 1983. Not sure if that is related to the photo in question though.

 

[Polarbear]

That photo was taken in what was a pretty severe winter as I recall & more than a few services got diverted off their normal routes.

However, as a previous poster has pointed out - it's squeaky clean which suggests it's probably on a publicity run.

I seem to recall only one HST making it onto a Newcastle-Livepool working. A few deltics did appear in 1981 but not a regular turn.

HST's weren't introduced onto cross country workings until the May 1982 timetable I think & even then, this would have been way off route as they didn't start working to the likes of Manchester until 1984.

 

[theblackwatch]

Yes, HSTs and Deltics have operated Newcastle Central <> Liverpool Lime St services in the 1980s, I do not know the details but I've seen quite a few photos of Deltics on the route shortly after they were withdrawn from the ECML (someone like theblackwatch will be able to post more info, I'm sure) but they didn't last long, perhaps 1 or 2 years? HSTs much less frequently, I did hear of an occasion when this happened. It would be harder these days but HSTs are cleared for the route.

As Eagle says, it's much more likely to be working to Glasgow/Edinburgh than Liverpool.

I am not aware of HSTs ever working Newcastle-Liverpool services and am highly dubious about this claim - have you a reference for or details of such workings? The HST fleet was fully employed on other duties (GWML, ECML, followed by XC and MML) to be used on such work that didn't even warrant the use of full rakes of 'aircons' even after a load had been displaced from ECML duties by HSTs.

Deltics frequently ran on Trans Pennine services from June 1979 until December 1981.

 

[Chester025]

A York - Lime Street service was a HST around Christmas 1981, I've seen a phot at St Helens Junction most probably the same service pictured above.

 

[ess]

So what rolling stock did leeds to stalybridge between 1980 - 1985?

 

[RichmondCommu]

So what rolling stock did leeds to stalybridge between 1980 - 1985?

Mk2a,b&c stock on the trans pennine expresses. I have a photo of a Detlic at Huddersfield in very snowy (and cold!) conditions.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I thought that was the Class 123 DMUs. If not, where were they working?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I thought that was the Class 123 DMUs. If not, where were they working?

I think they ran via the Hope Valley?

 

[gg1]

I'd suggest it's actually heading for Scotland on the InterCity route.

Doubtful, in the 80s Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh services were diesel hauled to Preston, then electric to Carstairs where they would split, half the train carrying on to Glasgow with electric traction, the other half being diesel hauled to Waverley.

I suppose they may have trialled HSTs on this route in the early 80s but I don't think it's likely, BR weren't keen on running long distance diesel hauled services under the wires at the time.

 

[theblackwatch]

Looking at the photo in more detail, the power car is one from the 43153-198 batch, which at that time were in the process of delivery (some were in service). Also the power car is rather clean, indicating that it was probably quite new. If it isn't the working mentioned by Chester025, it could be some form of test run, although the normal run for power cars was for them to go from Crewe to Derby, pick up some trailers then have a spin to Darlington. I think a copy of 'The Railway Observer' from around February 1982 may be needed to see if this working is mentioned, or a look at the 'Readers Round Up' section of Rail Enthusiast back then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought that was the Class 123 DMUs. If not, where were they working?

The 123s (and 124s) were by then on South Trans Pennine (Hull-Manchester via Doncaster/Sheffield) services.

 

[driver9000]

When the 'Executive' livery was introduced there was a PR shoot using the full set (43125 & 43126 I think) on the Copy Pit line, this would have been in 1983. Not sure if that is related to the photo in question though.

There were two adverts made a few years apart. One was filmed using a blue HST as it was before Executive livery had appeared and another was filmed after Executive was introduced. There is a photograph of the Executive liveried set at Hebden Bridge.

That said, I don't think I've ever seen the advert featuring the blue set. The cine film I've seen does show it running in snow with cameras fixed to the body sides.

 

[4SRKT]

I remember class 31s and a rake of coaches doing the TP route out of Scarborough for a while (mid 80s?).

Only on the York terminators. The hourly Trans-Pennine service started back at Scarborough roughly 2 out of every 3 hours and from Newcastle on the third hour. The gaps from Scarborough were filled by a 31 + mk I compos rake to York (used platforms 6 or 7 at York, where the current platform 2 is, and were shunt released by the 08 station pilot).

This was part of a glorious loco-hauled renaissance in the early to mid '80s, where loads of rolling stock had been cascaded by HSTs and loco-hauled mk IIIs, at the same time as lots of DMU vehicles were being withdrawn due to asbestos content. The mk Is and mk IIAs that fell out of the bottom of the stock cascade were matched with often small locos (27s, 31s, 33s) to operate services formerly run by DMUS and give a lot of interest for the enthusiast

 

[Chester025]

If it isn't the working mentioned by Chester025

I'm 99% sure it is, the railways were in choas and the HST was kicked out to do the 1149 York - Lime Street & 1405 return. If fotopic was still alive I would post a link to a phot at St Helens from someone who did it to there from Lime Street. There was even a short piece on 'BBC North West' or whatever the equivalent was back then.

 

[FLHH East Anglia]

Deltics worked on the ECML right to the end without being sent to other routes. There were a handful of occasions at the end of their careers when to prevent cancellation they were sent off the ECML but this was rare. There is certainly a photo of one stood at Lime Street. Deltics saw no service after January 1982.

As for the HST, it looks incredibly clean. An advert was filmed using a blue set at Copy Pit and the amateur footage I've seen show the filming runs being done in the snow. It may. have been connected with this and the set was passing through Victoria heading to/returning from Copy pit. HSTs weren't introduced to Cross-country services until around 1982/83 and I'm sure any Intercity services into Victoria remained loco hauled at the time and remained so after the Windsor link opened.

faily certain Deltics were'nt rare on the TP route.:roll:

 

[deltic]

I certainly recall Deltics working Liverpool-Newcastle services in 1980/1 - wouldnt say they were rare but not that common either. I remember a radio interview with the lady who ran the private buffet on Stalybridge station saying the only train she recognized from its unique sound passing through the station was a deltic. - never saw an HST service on the route

 

[Ploughman]

Late 80s early 90s the Newcastle / Scarborough to Manchester / Liverpool were worked by 45s / 46s / 47s

 

[4SRKT]

Late 80s early 90s the Newcastle / Scarborough to Manchester / Liverpool were worked by 45s / 46s / 47s

From the 1987 timetable the Liverpool > Newcastle service was worked by 47s only, with all 45s being withdrawn by 1989 (I think), and 46s several years earlier (1984 IIRR). 46s were never a common sight on the North Trans-Pennine in the 1980s anyway, with ETH locos being booked for all workings (although non-ETH 45s and 47s did turn up often enough in the summer months before the 1987 timetable). I never saw a Peak on the North Trans-Pennine after 1987. From the 1987 timetable the Liverpool > Scarborough arm of the service was worked by 4- or 6-car 150/2s, one of the first installments of the so-called 'Sprinter Revolution'. Ouch.

 

[exile]

Trans Pennine DMUs (6 coaches) did the Liverpool-Leeds run from the early 60s to the late 70s when replaced by loco-hauled services - class 47s with 5-8 coaches usually but latterly Deltics.

There have only been slight improvements in timings and frequency between these 2 cities in the last half century - speed limits, hills and curves.

 

[4SRKT]

Trans Pennine DMUs (6 coaches) did the Liverpool-Leeds run from the early 60s to the late 70s when replaced by loco-hauled services - class 47s with 5-8 coaches usually but latterly Deltics.

There have only been slight improvements in timings and frequency between these 2 cities in the last half century - speed limits, hills and curves.

45s were at least as common as 47s, with 40s putting in plenty of appereances in the late 70s and very early 80s. Deltics were very rare: AFAIK just one return working York > Liverpool > York right at the end in 1981.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's bizarre that 25-30 years ago, when Britains' railways were experiencing something of a lull in passenger numbers, six carriage formations (loco-hauled and/or class 124s at various times) were the norm on the Transpennine route, and yet now, with 6% growth in passenger numbers year on year, the majority of trains over the route are 3 carriages long.

 

[Polarbear]

It's bizarre that 25-30 years ago, when Britains' railways were experiencing something of a lull in passenger numbers, six carriage formations (loco-hauled and/or class 124s at various times) were the norm on the Transpennine route, and yet now, with 6% growth in passenger numbers year on year, the majority of trains over the route are 3 carriages long.

Not that bizarre actually. In those days, the frequency was hourly between Manchester & Leeds, with a few local services in between. Nowadays, it's a 3 car train every 15 minutes as well as local services.

It was a bit tight for capacity when 150/2's replaced the loco hauled services on that line in 1987-88. I had the not too joyous experience of a Hull - Chester run on one of the blessed things. :roll: