HST's on 3rd rail lines.

[bnm]

I was on the 0748 Plymouth to London Waterloo FGW HST on Good Friday 2015.

We were held outside Andover for a fair while with the TM announcing there was a 'train fault'.

That 'train fault' was allowing a HST set into traffic to Waterloo with one of the Mk3 carriages in the consist on Long Swing Link bogies.

LSL bogies are not permitted to run over the 3rd rail network due to the danger of them shorting the traction current and/or fouling the conductor rail. Mk3s can only run over the 3rd rail network with Short Swing Link (SSL) bogies.

I heard, although can't confirm, that a clued up member of the public (cf. enthusiast) spotted the 'LSL' label as the set departed Westbury. Took some time for the message to get through to the train, but fortunately it did so before we reached the start of 3rd rail at Worting Junction outside Basingstoke. We were terminated at Andover, transfered to a following SWT service, and the offending HST was sent back west. The booked return working, 1259 London Waterloo-Penzance was cancelled through to Taunton. Only ran from Exeter St David's to Penzance.

Someone balls up at Laira depot. :roll:

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What sort of percentage of HST coaches have got the long-links?

 

[83G/84D]

I am sure this has been discussed before but can't recall when. with HST's in and out of Waterloo at the moment can someone please explain the difference between short and long swing link bogies and why there are restrictions on third rail lines.

 

[swt_passenger]

I am sure this has been discussed before but can't recall when but with HST's in and out of Waterloo at the moment can someone please explain the difference between short and long swing link bogies and why there are restrictions on third rail lines.

There's a picture of a Short Swing Link bogie below. In the Long version the links are longer and the beam across the bottom is also a different casting shape, and the whole thing comes very close to the third rail under extreme suspension movement.

There are different styles of 'safety strap' as well, some (but not all) LSL bogies have a sort of steel stirrup rather than the wire rope, that also comes close to the third rail.

Hope this helps.

 

[BingBong50]

There's a picture of a Short Swing Link bogie below. In the Long version the links are longer and the beam across the bottom is also a different casting shape, and the whole thing comes very close to the third rail under extreme suspension movement.

There are different styles of 'safety strap' as well, some (but not all) LSL bogies have a sort of steel stirrup rather than the wire rope, that also comes close to the third rail.

Hope this helps.

So does this imply that all First Great Western HST's have the Short Swing Link or just the ones that are using Waterloo at the moment?

Also are they using the old Eurostar Platforms for these services?

 

[swt_passenger]

So does this imply that all First Great Western HST's have the Short Swing Link or just the ones that are using Waterloo at the moment?

I reckon based on observations at Reading that a good majority of FGW's sets are SSL bogie fitted. They haven't had problems providing enough sets for Waterloo normally, but according to a thread today they made an error on Friday and someone spotted a single LSL coach within a formation yesterday, which was stopped at Andover.

Also are they using the old Eurostar Platforms for these services?

No. The services will arrive/depart Waterloo on the main line side, (i.e. via Wimbledon) so cannot easily use the international platforms; P11 seems to be the destination, same as last time.

The first diversions for the Reading rebuild (2010/11) used the Windsor side approach, but then into P17 or 18 IIRC.

Even with SSL bogies, there are other restrictions for individual platforms at Waterloo, the trains are still not 'go anywhere'. (That is believed to be problems with power car gauge clearance below platform edge level.)

 

[83G/84D]

I heard a brief conversation on a FGW train yesterday about an incident on this subject,thanks for the replies.

 

[GearJammer]

The booked return working, 1259 London Waterloo-Penzance was cancelled through to Taunton. Only ran from Exeter St David's to Penzance.

I'd really like to know why the return working (12:59 departure) was cancelled when there was a spare HST set stabled at Clapham Jnc, surely that is the whole bloody point of having it there??????????????????

 

[fgwrich]

I'd really like to know why the return working (12:59 departure) was cancelled when there was a spare HST set stabled at Clapham Jnc, surely that is the whole bloody point of having it there??????????????????

But were the available crew nearby with it? If a set failed in Waterloo then at least the crew would be able to swap it. But not so at Andover if they've got to take it westwards again surely?

 

[GearJammer]

But were the available crew nearby with it? If a set failed in Waterloo then at least the crew would be able to swap it. But not so at Andover if they've got to take it westwards again surely?

Well surely if you got a spare set your going to have a spare crew standing by with it..... is that not the whole point, it only needs a driver and a guard and a route conducter, without them there is no point in having the train there at all.

 

[Class 170101]

I think it was only there for the sleeper which was HST vice usual stock.

 

[RobShipway]

I think it was only there for the sleeper which was HST vice usual stock.

I thought that the sleeper set of coaches was SSL fitted, which was one of the reasons why there was thoughts in the past to using one of the platforms in Waterloo International for both this service and the Scottish Sleeper Service?

 

[fgwrich]

I thought that the sleeper set of coaches was SSL fitted, which was one of the reasons why there was thoughts in the past to using one of the platforms in Waterloo International for both this service and the Scottish Sleeper Service?

I'm not sure - I think the BFO may be an LSL Mk3 (I'll take a look at it next time I'm on it in the next few weeks).

But you are right, the Night Riviera this weekend is being run with a HST from Waterloo.

 

[hassaanhc]

Deleted, duplicate post

 

[hassaanhc]

As an illustration, the relevant "SSL" or "LSL" stickers are on the inner end of the coach:


Coach D of the 1000 Penzance to Waterloo, seen at destination, I was on that coach from Taunton.

 

[louis97]

I think it was only there for the sleeper which was HST vice usual stock.

No, the sleeper HST on most of the days interworks with daytime services. Another reason why the sleeper is an HST. The HST in Clapham Yard is fresh from Old Oak Common each morning. (Except Saturday Morning when it was off the sleeper HST)

 

[Class 170101]

I thought that the sleeper set of coaches was SSL fitted, which was one of the reasons why there was thoughts in the past to using one of the platforms in Waterloo International for both this service and the Scottish Sleeper Service?

Problem at Waterloo is there is no loco to shunt release the stock unlike at Paddington.

 

[RobShipway]

Problem at Waterloo is there is no loco to shunt release the stock unlike at Paddington.

That would make sense why it is an HST this weekend.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Is there any reason why the sleeper isn't an HST anyway? Or is it marginally cheaper to run on the wires where possible, with the loco change not mattering as it's not a service run for speed?

If so, it rather puts to bed the idea that bimodes mean the end of electrification, as it shows that every extra mile of wires counts!

 

[Domh245]

Is there any reason why the sleeper isn't an HST anyway? Or is it marginally cheaper to run on the wires where possible, with the loco change not mattering as it's not a service run for speed?

If so, it rather puts to bed the idea that bimodes mean the end of electrification, as it shows that every extra mile of wires counts!

The Night Riviera sleeper doesn't use any electric locos, seeing as it would only get it as far as Airport Junction at the moment! I suspect that they don't use HSTs because there isn't an HST sleeper set, and the current set would need to be rewired to work with HST power cars. I suspect that once electrification is done, you might see it run with an electric loco (possibly an 88 depending on how well it performs under diesel mode) as far newbury before changing, or maybe even see the sleeper re-routed through bristol to make use of the wires there.

 

[Marton]

Please can someone explain why HSTs have both types and if there are benefits to one type or the other.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Please can someone explain why HSTs have both types and if there are benefits to one type or the other.

I assume you're talking about the different swing link types on the coach bogies?

Simple really.

HSTs initially ran over the GWML and ECML, neither of which needed SSL bogies. So all were initially LSL.

Some later HSTs covered cross country routes, which included running over tracks with 3rd rail. It was found that the clearance to the third rail was inadequate with the LSL bogies and that there was a risk of shorting out on the third rail. For this reason the SSL bogie was developed and used.

 

[Marton]

Thank you.

 

[yorksrob]

The Night Riviera sleeper doesn't use any electric locos, seeing as it would only get it as far as Airport Junction at the moment! I suspect that they don't use HSTs because there isn't an HST sleeper set, and the current set would need to be rewired to work with HST power cars. I suspect that once electrification is done, you might see it run with an electric loco (possibly an 88 depending on how well it performs under diesel mode) as far newbury before changing, or maybe even see the sleeper re-routed through bristol to make use of the wires there.

Also possibly that sleeper trains tend to travel quite slowly, so they wouldn't need the high speed capabilities of HST traction.

 

[CosherB]

Is there any reason why the sleeper isn't an HST anyway? Or is it marginally cheaper to run on the wires where possible, with the loco change not mattering as it's not a service run for speed?

If so, it rather puts to bed the idea that bimodes mean the end of electrification, as it shows that every extra mile of wires counts!

There is an extensive "FGW 57/3 Unreliability" thread on here regarding traction cover for the Night Riviera ..... should keep you busy for a while!

 

[Class 170101]

Also possibly that sleeper trains tend to travel quite slowly, so they wouldn't need the high speed capabilities of HST traction.

HSTs have been used on the sleeper due to Class 57 reliability issues but aren't comfortable and usually result in FGW paying compensation to passengers. Sleepers are limited to 75mph max speed anyway to allow passengers to get a dood nights sleep.

 

[cjmillsnun]

HSTs have been used on the sleeper due to Class 57 reliability issues but aren't comfortable and usually result in FGW paying compensation to passengers. Sleepers are limited to 75mph max speed anyway to allow passengers to get a dood nights sleep.

I suspect that if it were possible to put the sleepers between power cars as you would with HST coaches (I know they'd need a rewire) then they would be far more comfortable. It's more to do with coupling them using the emergency drawbar, meaning no buffers to absorb any shocks in the drivetrain.

 

[yorksrob]

HSTs have been used on the sleeper due to Class 57 reliability issues but aren't comfortable and usually result in FGW paying compensation to passengers. Sleepers are limited to 75mph max speed anyway to allow passengers to get a dood nights sleep.

Indeed. I think if I'd paid for a bed and berth for the night and an ordinary carriage had turned up, I'd expect some compensation.

 

[infobleep]

So are there no berths on the sleeper services this weekend?

 

[DarloRich]

So are there no berths on the sleeper services this weekend?

Clearly not if an HST set is standing in