HSTs - How long will they last?

[FusionRail]

save the HST! they are so much better, noisier, british, wider, more practical and better looking than 222's on the MML! i dont see why we keep getting replcements for old trains like the 47's 58's etc and whatever other dmu's emu's if they work fine and people like them.. surely thats better than having some foriegn imports that dont look/sound anywherenear as good.. just a thought

 

[class 313]

save the HST! they are so much better, noisier, british, wider, more practical and better looking than 222's on the MML! i dont see why we keep getting replcements for old trains like the 47's 58's etc and whatever other dmu's emu's if they work fine and people like them.. surely thats better than having some foriegn imports that dont look/sound anywherenear as good.. just a thought

In the 222 case, MML can get quicker times with 222s as they can get off the mark quicker compared to HSTs thus they can get a better service. FOC's and TOC's don't care about the enthusiast views. In most cases such as replacing Slammers, the norm prefer newer trains as they have AirCon and such so the TOC gets a better reputation, pulls in more customers gets more money....

 

[djw1981]

Also, with the move to EMU/DMU trains, and increased frequency and capacity of services, we need new rolling stock. Most stock has a servicable life of 30 years, so we should always be renewing it.

 

[Techniquest]

A) First HST to be preserved at all will not happen until at least 2020 I believe. This will follow the end of public passenger service and a few years of political debate over who should own them and where they should go next, possibly with a few power cars being scrapped whilst the decision is made.

B) I firmly believe Great Western will be the final stomping grounds for the HST, based on the almost total diesel-only operational ground it covers.

C) Final public passenger service for the HST will hopefully not happen for another 9 years yet, although depending on the HST2/IEP/whatever-its-called-today programme's progress this will probably be extended. Even after said programme is completed and all of the new order are in service, I would strongly recommend keeping some HST sets in tactical reserve/warm storage to ensure any unanticipated failures of the new order are coverable without mass cancellations.
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They used to be but 43070 (what used to be the silver power car) has now been MTU'ed. http://mattspencer.fotopic.net/p44710144.html

As has 43069, which has been noted in Landore awaiting entry to service with its MTU any time soon.

Someone else mentioned that they were 'surprised' that people weren't calling the Valenta, S352 as I'm sure other people will mention/correct me on if needs be, the best one around. This is, and has been for a while, the case. S352 Uncut (two-disc DVD, contact 125 Group - shameless plug - to get a copy, HIGHLY recommended) highlights just how amazing it was. Then of course FGW buggered it up...

 

[support-uk-rail]

save the HST! they are so much better, noisier, british, wider, more practical and better looking than 222's on the MML! i dont see why we keep getting replcements for old trains like the 47's 58's etc and whatever other dmu's emu's if they work fine and people like them.. surely thats better than having some foriegn imports that dont look/sound anywherenear as good.. just a thought

Definately right. Decommisioning the HST will be like changing our language to French. And nobody wants that, right?

However, the builders of the trains only expected them to be in frequent mainline service until 1997-1999 if they were lucky, a decade on, and the majority are still in use. I hope they keep for another three decades.

It's a 50/50, Virgin have proved that retiring their entire fleet (except for converted 57's) and introducing the VGR's and PNDLNS' allows more services, more eco-friendly usage, better reliability and often more comfort, yet FGW tried to do the same with the class 180 Adelante, but now the 180's are facing retirement with the last Adelante leaving mainline service in 2009 if all goes to plan, however, 2 will kept as spares.

 

[class 313]

B) I firmly believe Great Western will be the final stomping grounds for the HST, based on the almost total diesel-only operational ground it covers.

Midland Mainline only has 3 stations under wires (not including St Pancras)

 

[Redrock]

A, First HST in Heritage rail service- 2016, after introduction of the replacement HST2

B, Who will operate the last mainline HST - Difficult to say. I'm tempted to go with the majority and say FGW, but then theres Hull Trains, and there could be other "open access" operators by then.

C, Last HST in service - Excluding charters, I'd say 2020, by which time they'll be around 40 years old. Even then the Mk III carriages are so well built I wouldn't be surprised if they are recycled and turn up as loco hauled push-pull stock.

 

[Techniquest]

Midland Mainline only has 3 stations under wires (not including St Pancras)

But MML have Meridians, widely considered by this forum to be a fantastic product - certainly NOT by myself - but disses the Voyagers at every opportunity, so they have much less reliance on the popular and far superior HST. They do operate on non-OHLE track for a lot of their few routes, but GW only has OHLE up to Heathrow Junction, of which no GW train has any use. The ECML is, of course, dominated by Mallard sets. It is here where I personally expect to see the HST to see its last services first.

 

[class 313]

But MML have Meridians, widely considered by this forum to be a fantastic product - certainly NOT by myself - but disses the Voyagers at every opportunity, so they have much less reliance on the popular and far superior HST. They do operate on non-OHLE track for a lot of their few routes, but GW only has OHLE up to Heathrow Junction, of which no GW train has any use. The ECML is, of course, dominated by Mallard sets. It is here where I personally expect to see the HST to see its last services first.

Yes its true about GW and I do see the ECML becoming more and more dominant on electric locos. But the MML wont be electrified for some while yet!

 

[Guinness]

But MML have Meridians, widely considered by this forum to be a fantastic product - certainly NOT by myself - but disses the Voyagers at every opportunity, so they have much less reliance on the popular and far superior HST. They do operate on non-OHLE track for a lot of their few routes, but GW only has OHLE up to Heathrow Junction, of which no GW train has any use. The ECML is, of course, dominated by Mallard sets. It is here where I personally expect to see the HST to see its last services first.

It's a fantastic product because it's used correctly. Voyagers on 1000 mile trips aren't.

 

[Dennis]

It is most likely that the ECML franchise would be the first to ditch HST's as this is where IEP will initially be introduced.

Regarding electrification of of GWML, are there not complications caused by the fact that it is a listed 'world heritage site'?

 

[Techniquest]

Not sure on that one. Bristol to London is classed as such I believe, so no pointing putting up the wires anywhere else on GW! Not complaining though, diesel is so much more interesting than electric!

 

[Jord]

I never understand this, Virgin got rid of all there HSTs, but who in the right mind would want to go with a smaller train (Voyagers) than a bigger train (HST) when passenger numbers are always going up? some idiot wasn't thinking in the long run i say

 

[class 313]

I never understand this, Virgin got rid of all there HSTs, but who in the right mind would want to go with a smaller train (Voyagers) than a bigger train (HST) when passenger numbers are always going up? some idiot wasn't thinking in the long run i say

Virgin HSTs were 5 car IIRC (Not all the HSTs I know...)

 

[djw1981]

A) First HST to be preserved at all will not happen until at least 2020 I believe. This will follow the end of public passenger service and a few years of political debate over who should own them and where they should go next, possibly with a few power cars being scrapped whilst the decision is made.

B) I firmly believe Great Western will be the final stomping grounds for the HST, based on the almost total diesel-only operational ground it covers.

snip

But the Inter City Express Train (HST replacement) is being introduced to ECML and GWML first, so XC or MMl may be the final services.
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I never understand this, Virgin got rid of all there HSTs, but who in the right mind would want to go with a smaller train (Voyagers) than a bigger train (HST) when passenger numbers are always going up? some idiot wasn't thinking in the long run i say

The Virgin idea was to run more frequent smaller trains - ie there would be the same number of seats.

 

[Donny Dave]

Virgin HSTs were 5 car IIRC (Not all the HSTs I know...)

AFAIK, all VXC HSTS were in a 2+7 formation.

 

[class 313]

AFAIK, all VXC HSTS were in a 2+7 formation.

I remember seeing 5 car ones on XC, the 7 car formations were the VWC/XC

 

[NSEFAN]

The Virgin idea was to run more frequent smaller trains - ie there would be the same number of seats

But of course this ideal 'turn up and go' XC service with trains every half hour doesn't always work.

If a XC train is late in one part of the country, it'll delay other things on it's entire journey. So having late trains coming along every half hour isn't very good for your performance stats.

But all they can do now is run two 221s or three 220s together in less frequent trains, which is, in my opinion, a waste of space (3 shops per train, for example, is not necessary, and would have been avoided if voyagers had been built as 10 and 12 car sets in the first place).

I just hope that HSTs last as long as possible. If the current ones are getting on a bit then build some new ones in the same style, except with a few reliability improvements, pollution reducing measures, etc

 

[me123]

I think (pure speculation on my part with no evidence whatsoever) that Arriva would/should look into new trains to replace HSTs quite soon, which would be quite long. It would be a good investment having the, say, 12 car trains which could displace voyagers on some busy services (eg the 0900 GLC-PNZ) replace the HSTs (a shame, but something that really should be looked into by them) and this could potentially open the XC network back up with GLC-PNZ via the WCML (but what are the chances of that happening?)

 

[87015]

I remember seeing 5 car ones on XC, the 7 car formations were the VWC/XC

At privatisation all XC sets were 2+7, at least in theory. (2+2 and 2+3 ones were fun!) Post-Voyager introduction some 2+5 HST sets were formed for Brum-Manchester/Blackpools, they were branded "Challengers" IIRC (?) and the original plan was to refurb them and retain them alongside Voyagers. This was then dropped in favour of an all-Voyager fleet.

 

[class 313]

At privatisation all XC sets were 2+7, at least in theory. (2+2 and 2+3 ones were fun!) Post-Voyager introduction some 2+5 HST sets were formed for Brum-Manchester/Blackpools, they were branded "Challengers" IIRC (?) and the original plan was to refurb them and retain them alongside Voyagers. This was then dropped in favour of an all-Voyager fleet.

Ah that what I saw then. Thanks!

 

[support-uk-rail]

Since the HST has had such good feedback from passengers, crew and TOC's alike over the last 3 decades, there is simply no reason why we cannot continue to build these. Of course, it would be good if they could improve it's ecological deposit etc, but that's not major. The HST is very reliable and I think everyone likes it.

It ****es me off we're trying to bring in all these bad Adelantes or whatever, when it would be cheaper to continue producing the same stock the only thing is-

- TOC's always think the word "new" also means "better"



I will admit I do like the Voyagers, but at the same time, I hate the Adelantes. I think Virgin should keep most of their Voyager/Pendalino stock but re-introduce a couple of refurbished HST's.... I'm glad Arriva XC will be, that's the one good point about the franchise change.

 

[Redrock]

Since the HST has had such good feedback from passengers, crew and TOC's alike over the last 3 decades, there is simply no reason why we cannot continue to build these. Of course, it would be good if they could improve it's ecological deposit etc, but that's not major. The HST is very reliable and I think everyone likes it.

.

Is there anywhere left in the Uk where we could build new HSTs even if we wanted to

 

[class 313]

Is there anywhere left in the Uk where we could build new HSTs even if we wanted to

Bombardier....

 

[Dennis]

Why build more HST's? The technology is now 30 years old; it would be like going into your local Ford dealer and asking for a Cortina!!

They might have been innovative when new and still perfectly good today, but design and materials have moved on a lot since then.

The problems with a lot of new trains seems to be associated with the passenger environment, not the mechanical package. Things like uncomfortable seats, smelly bogs, non-functioning aircon and poor window/seat alignment together with insuffiient capacity contribute to a poor travelling environment.

BR seemed very good at using design panels to overcome this type of problem and generally ending up with designs that met the needs and expectations of passengers.

Of course, the arguments for / against distributed power must also be considered. This is where the HST excels, no underfloor engines contributing to endless noise and vibration. So, a power unit at each end and sensibly designed passenger accommodation in between would seem the best solution (to me) for IEP and I fail to understand why these cannot be bought pretty much 'off the shelf'. Instead DfT seems to be overcomplicating the specification, adding to cost and stretching out the delivery time.

 

[Techniquest]

But the Inter City Express Train (HST replacement) is being introduced to ECML and GWML first, so XC or MMl may be the final services.

Good point, but since XC have no HST fleet it has (in my opinion) to fall to GW or MML. I'd put money on the former getting the final HST runs due to the already-mentioned diesel-dominated routes and the lack of anything particularly worth/able to replace the HSTs.

 

[djw1981]

But if DfT tell Great western in 2015 that they are getting IEP over the next 5 years, then you may be right, However can we see voyagers making it much beyond 2020 without a full refurbishment? So the HST may end up replacing the Voyagers.... Just as Roger Ford in Modern railways thinks that it will replace the Pendelino's.

The release of HST's in 2020 could see them being used for more inter-regional journeys with perhaps 4-5 carriages?

 

[Techniquest]

It is very possible that. Indeed, that was the plan after the ATP was made and put into service, to relegate the HST to secondary work. Obviously that never happened in the end.

As for the Voyager refurb, well it'll happen eventually. Of course the current layout will be pushed as much as possible until it really, really needs doing. But I believe we shouldn't expect a Voyager refurbishment for a good few years yet, as the current interiors should still last for a fair while. Personally expecting those to happen, if they do of course, around 2019 - 2022 myself. They'll probably get new seat covers and a re-vinyl eventually (going on their past record) when they pass over to Arriva later this year, but a proper refurb is not expected for some time yet.

IEP will probably actually begin on GW as it has the oldest stock out of the IC operators (a fairly dominant fleet of HST sets over 30 years old is where I get this guess from, whereas MML have fairly new Meridians, XC has Voyagers, WC has Pendolinos and ECML has Mallard MK4s, all of the other stock is much newer than that on GW), thus will probably make the biggest impact on passengers. I'd go as far as suggesting that Paddington - Bristol will probably be the first part of GW to get the IEP, followed shortly by Paddington - South Wales.

 

[Jim]

But MML have Meridians, widely considered by this forum to be a fantastic product - certainly NOT by myself - but disses the Voyagers at every opportunity,.

But Meridians ARE comfier and rattle less that Voyagers!

 

[class 313]

But Meridians ARE comfier and rattle less that Voyagers!

Indeed this is true. Also MML wont get any more Meridians either.