HST's for Scotrails New Franchise

[thetangoman]

HSTs are planned to work the Aberdeen - Inverness trains. Makes sense as the diagrams are interlinked.

Are they not due to work either trains between Aberdeen/Inverness and Glasgow/Edinburgh and not between Aberdeen and Inverness

 

[matchmaker]

So you are commenting on something you dont understand and trying to support that view with 'aerial views' etc (again irrelevant), anyway this is way off topic so if you would like to start a thread about it then fine otherwise try and stay on topic for a change, oh and only post what you know to be fact and not what you think is fact which is not the same thing.
Maybe you should learn some of the intricacies about signalling so you would be better informed when posting about it, just a thought!

I assumed that the position of the points & signals won't change much (if at all) and that the platforms will be extended at the buffer stop end. All you have to do then is move the track circuit insulated joints to lengthen the track circuits and there you are! Not rocket science...

 

[Altnabreac]

Are they not due to work either trains between Aberdeen/Inverness and Glasgow/Edinburgh and not between Aberdeen and Inverness

The tender does not require Aberdeen - Inverness trains to be worked by the "Intercity" stock (the HSTs in the Abellio bid) but the Abellio brochure states that Aberdeen - Inverness will use the HSTs as an extra from the minimum franchise spec.

 

[Chris125]

The HSTs will only replace the long-distance Turbostar diagrams, though, which probably covers about 40 units at most.

True, but alongside those freed up by EGIP that would surely allow most if not all 156s to head south of the border if the WHL is cleared for 158s.

Are they not due to work either trains between Aberdeen/Inverness and Glasgow/Edinburgh and not between Aberdeen and Inverness

It says in the brochure that there'll be "hugely popular high speed trains between Aberdeen and the other six Scottish cities", and the map shows a think blue 'Scotrail Intercity' line between them.

Chris

 

[NSEFAN]

HSTs would be well suited to duties from Glasgow/Edinburgh -Aberdeen/Inverness. If they were to have power doors fitted then this would reduce the dwell times. I'm not sure if they could keep up with class 170 timings, however.

 

[jopsuk]

It says in the brochure that there'll be "hugely popular high speed trains between Aberdeen and the other six Scottish cities", and the map shows a think blue 'Scotrail Intercity' line between them.

Chris

That's in the "NESTRANS" bit. In the "HITRANS" bit it is more explicit:
"Hugely popular high speed trains with improved facilities, galley catering, more comfort and greater security for passengers between Inverness and Aberdeen and Inverness and the central belt"

As for the 170s, if this displaces the 34 "Express" 170s, how many of the 25 "local" 170s (no 1st class) would be needed to run the Fife Circle, Edinburgh Dundee and (potentially) Borders line? I add the Borders line in as that would mean a uniform DMU fleet.

 

[Altnabreac]

That's in the "NESTRANS" bit. In the "HITRANS" bit it is more explicit:
"Hugely popular high speed trains with improved facilities, galley catering, more comfort and greater security for passengers between Inverness and Aberdeen and Inverness and the central belt"

As for the 170s, if this displaces the 34 "Express" 170s, how many of the 25 "local" 170s (no 1st class) would be needed to run the Fife Circle, Edinburgh Dundee and (potentially) Borders line? I add the Borders line in as that would mean a uniform DMU fleet.

According to the brochure the Borders line is to use the "Scenic line" stock along with WHL, Kyle, Far North, Stranraer and Glasgow - Dumfries - Carlisle.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As for the 170s, if this displaces the 34 "Express" 170s, how many of the 25 "local" 170s (no 1st class) would be needed to run the Fife Circle, Edinburgh Dundee and (potentially) Borders line? I add the Borders line in as that would mean a uniform DMU fleet.

There's also the Scottish government's HLOS commitment to an annual 100stkm electrification programme after EGIP/Alloa/Dunblane is finished.
That should steadily knock off diesel lines like East Kilbride and Kilmarnock, and maybe Fife Circle.

 

[matchmaker]

HSTs would be well suited to duties from Glasgow/Edinburgh -Aberdeen/Inverness. If they were to have power doors fitted then this would reduce the dwell times. I'm not sure if they could keep up with class 170 timings, however.

Another problem I can potentially see is the chance of a power car failure. If you lose an engine on a 6 car 170 you still have 5 working engines. If an HST power car fails you have far greater problems - especially on the HML. In fact, last week an up "Highland Chieftain" failed north of Aviemore due to poor adhesion. Apparently it then returned to Inverness for another go, made it, but was cancelled at Edinburgh as by then it was 2 hours late!

I'm not sure if there was a power car failure in this case.

 

[Liam]

Another problem I can potentially see is the chance of a power car failure. If you lose an engine on a 6 car 170 you still have 5 working engines. If an HST power car fails you have far greater problems - especially on the HML. In fact, last week an up "Highland Chieftain" failed north of Aviemore due to poor adhesion. Apparently it then returned to Inverness for another go, made it, but was cancelled at Edinburgh as by then it was 2 hours late!

I'm not sure if there was a power car failure in this case.

That would be a 9 car set, Scotrail are likely to use them in 5 or 6 car formation.

Would there be a surplus of HST trailers which could be converted to work with other locomotives, possibly to replace the 156's on the WHL?

 

[jopsuk]

Something I wonder about: what is the likelihood of the power cars being re-geared? As far as I know there's no lines with speed limits above 100mph north of Edinburgh and Glasgow- so would giveing them a bit more low-speed ability at the expense of top speed be a sensible idea? They will obviously be operating in shorter formations anyway, which will help versus the 2+9 of the Cheiftain.

 

[47802]

That would be a 9 car set, Scotrail are likely to use them in 5 or 6 car formation.

Would there be a surplus of HST trailers which could be converted to work with other locomotives, possibly to replace the 156's on the WHL?

I don't see anything other than upgraded units on the scenic routes with maybe some additional units to compensate for the loss of seating with extra space for bikes etc and realigned seats.

I also wonder if there a opportunity to get either Voyagers or Meridians during the period of the franchise that these might replace some or all the HST's.

 

[route:oxford]

Much as I like the HST - there is a bit of an issue with Mk3 stock at certain stations. In particular with the curve at Stirling and the Aberdeen platform at Perth.

It can be quite a step up to a Mk3 coach - not unlike some of the worst platforms at Bristol.

 

[Murph]

Much as I like the HST - there is a bit of an issue with Mk3 stock at certain stations. In particular with the curve at Stirling and the Aberdeen platform at Perth.

It can be quite a step up to a Mk3 coach - not unlike some of the worst platforms at Bristol.

If it's particularly bad, they could always be retrofitted with the folding steps fitted to the international Mk3 set, as part of their refurb.

 

[gingerheid]

I wouldn't have necessarily have thought HSTs were suitable for replacing all services on these routes; some of the services make a lot of stops at local stations. They're also an interesting way to use the limited platform space at Queen St.

 

[Liam]

I was thinking that too, will there be any pressure to increase linespeeds to compensate for the lost time?

 

[Murph]

I wouldn't have necessarily have thought HSTs were suitable for replacing all services on these routes; some of the services make a lot of stops at local stations. They're also an interesting way to use the limited platform space at Queen St.

If they are selling these services as InterCity, they might well not be making local stops, leaving those to units. If that's the case, it's the natural use of the HST, even if it won't be doing much running at 125. I'm all for it, as I think the HST is a far more suitable train for long distance running on these routes, than units. To me, Scotland is getting a first class rail service out of it, even if it rather irks me that it's not going to be operated by a Scottish company as it really should be.

 

[edwin_m]

No its using the figures now, what are the figures after EGIP?

EGIP will allow 8-car trains on Glasgow-Edinburgh, presumably of 23m stock, by moving the buffer stops at Queen Street back into the concourse. I'm not sure the plan is finalised but it would certainly need to have several platforms long enough for a 2+6 HST.

 

[Altnabreac]

If they are selling these services as InterCity, they might well not be making local stops, leaving those to units. If that's the case, it's the natural use of the HST, even if it won't be doing much running at 125. I'm all for it, as I think the HST is a far more suitable train for long distance running on these routes, than units. To me, Scotland is getting a first class rail service out of it, even if it rather irks me that it's not going to be operated by a Scottish company as it really should be.

Virtually all Scotrail services between Dundee and Aberdeen are included in the Intercity requirement. There are a couple of early / late trains not included and a few Glasgow - Dundees. I expect these would also be HST operated for operational convenience.

The only services North of Dundee and South of Inverness likely to remain DMU operated will be the peak Carnoustie - Edinburgh and return.

 

[455driver]

EGIP will allow 8-car trains on Glasgow-Edinburgh, presumably of 23m stock, by moving the buffer stops at Queen Street back into the concourse. I'm not sure the plan is finalised but it would certainly need to have several platforms long enough for a 2+6 HST.

But can you be certain?
Sounds rather sensible to me!

 

[Class 170101]

But can you be certain?
Sounds rather sensible to me!

I understand the maxmimum length available at Queen Street post EGIP will be a 2+6 HST length. However I thought it would only be three platforms lengthened to this.

Inverness would be more interesting with EC HST / IEP and Sleeper in the long platforms at the same time between 20:00 and 20:45 (approx).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Possibly more. There are 59 170 Turbostars in use on the routes that the refurbed HSTs would work.

Although as pointed out reasonably above, it is more likely that if Transport Scotland has to give up some units, they would probably prefer to cascade 170s onto 156 diagrams and send excess 156s south (although 15 of the 48 156s are fitted with specialist Radio Electronic Token Block equipment for use on the West Highland line). I'm sure Northern would take additional 156s to add to its existing 156 fleet and run them instead of 150s on certain diagrams. The 150s then replacing Pacers.

170s can be fitted with RETB as East Anglian versions carried it for the East Suffolk Line. However on the Far North Line they are not permitted to do Sprinter speeds and in places this means a speed of 20mph maximum.

Northern might not take on the 170s but TPE might However I can't believe Transport Scotland will let then go willingly. Of course it should eb noted fewer DMUs will be required once EGIP / Cwntral Belt wiring is completed.

 

[cf111]

Possibly more. There are 59 170 Turbostars in use on the routes that the refurbed HSTs would work.

Although as pointed out reasonably above, it is more likely that if Transport Scotland has to give up some units, they would probably prefer to cascade 170s onto 156 diagrams and send excess 156s south (although 15 of the 48 156s are fitted with specialist Radio Electronic Token Block equipment for use on the West Highland line). I'm sure Northern would take additional 156s to add to its existing 156 fleet and run them instead of 150s on certain diagrams. The 150s then replacing Pacers.

RETB won't be an issue if the 156s go as you only need to install a CDU. I believe there is a place for them in the 170 cabs and 158s already work the Far North.

 

[92002]

But can you be certain?
Sounds rather sensible to me!

Just so we can all sleep tonight.

Train detection in Queen Street is by those new fangled axle counters.

So there is no need for block joints.

 

[Bodiddly]

As a diesel head, this idea sounds great to me. Replacing choc a block 170's on the Inverness to Central belt diagrams can't come quick enough. The sight of a saltire emblazoned HST rolling in to Aviemore quite excites me!
The problem will be trying to sell the idea to the wider public who will simply see it as another incidence of old stock cascaded to Scotland, which in effect, it is.

 

[Murph]

As a diesel head, this idea sounds great to me. Replacing choc a block 170's on the Inverness to Central belt diagrams can't come quick enough. The sight of a saltire emblazoned HST rolling in to Aviemore quite excites me!
The problem will be trying to sell the idea to the wider public who will simply see it as another incidence of old stock cascaded to Scotland, which in effect, it is.

As long as the trains are looking their best, inside and out, and the initial months of their service are flawless, I imagine that the public will rapidly be charmed by the smooth and quiet luxury of the best trains in the UK, complete with a proper buffet car and a strong chance of getting a seat.

 

[childwallblues]

HSTs are planned to work the Aberdeen - Inverness trains. Makes sense as the diagrams are interlinked.

Aberdeen to Inverness is worked by a mix of 158 and 170 units. You can get a mix of 2, 3, 4 and 5 car trains depending on the time of day. When I was up there last October (2013) the 1714 ABD-INV was 7 car (1 x 170 and 2 x 158) with one of the 158s being detached at Inverurie.

 

[Altnabreac]

Aberdeen to Inverness is worked by a mix of 158 and 170 units. You can get a mix of 2, 3, 4 and 5 car trains depending on the time of day. When I was up there last October (2013) the 1714 ABD-INV was 7 car (1 x 170 and 2 x 158) with one of the 158s being detached at Inverurie.

I wonder if the proposed Inverness - Elgin services and some of the current extra peak services will be operated by the "scenic" stock rather than HSTs but it looks like all the through Aberdeen services will be "Intercity" using HSTs.

 

[matchmaker]

Just so we can all sleep tonight.

Train detection in Queen Street is by those new fangled axle counters.

So there is no need for block joints.

Didn't realise that. I'm old school Bring back detection bars!

 

[andyb2706]

Well, if Scotland gets some of FGW HST's, me thinks its only fair that Exeter gets some 170/156's to replace the Pacers (Only 8 to get rid of!), add on the 153's and Bob's your uncle!

Nah! Sorry I have to totally disagree with you there. Seeing you are only losing the HST's because you are getting brand spanking new IEP's and only have 8 pacer class 143, while northern have 80 odd rust buckets of Class 142 (I don't use the term rust bucket without reason with the well publicized corrosion problems that the 142's have!) Any cascades of 170/156's, although would it more likely be 156/158's? should head just south of the border into the Northern region as I can see no chance of Northern getting any new trains while the powers at be in Westminster have to look at a map to find where the North is.

It is good to see that the HST still has a life after the introduction of the IEP train. Still one of my favourite trains and still looks pretty good for being 40 years old.

Going off on a slight tangent but it shows how well local authorities on whole can run local transport compared to Westminster. Just take a look at Transport Scotland, TfGM and TfL. More devolved powers for transport please.

 

[Photohunter71]

So what exactly is "Scenic Stock"? Shame they won't do a Chiltern. Would be good to see them get a tag on order from CAF for coaching stock and a 68 or 88 fleet! Won't the DMU fleet be all 170's anyway? Some rumours Hitachi may be given some orders for stock on ScotRail lines.