HST v Class 180

[LexyBoy]

There is nothing wrong at all with the First Great Western HSTs interiors, be it lightening or seating. Just a few one here like to moan for no reason at all :roll:

Obviously it's subjective. Personally I would consider that a train which gives me a headache does indeed have something in it.

If you're travelling first class you get different, much nicer lighting. When the refurb was first done the lighting was the same throughout but was swiftly changed to a softer, warmer tone in FC - funny that.

 

[TEW]

It wasn't swiftly changed. The change to the lighting in First Class was only done in the last year or so, so some time after the original refurbishment. I find the lighting in Standard fine provided it's set to dim rather than bright, which it nearly always is.

 

[LexyBoy]

It definitely started more than a year ago, though for a while there was a bit of a mishmash.

Anyway, the old FGW HST discussion has been done to death, and it's obvious that there are extremes of opinions both ways. I was just irked by HLE 13's line about "moaning for no reason at all". Just because you don't have a problem with something, doesn't mean it's not real for someone else.

Let's just say that I'm looking forward to IEP...

 

[southern442]

I much prefer the 180s - a much more pleasant interior in every way except for the (considerable!) engine vibration.

The HSTs are claustrophobic, due to the seating as you say. This also makes it hard to tell where empty seats are. What I find worst of all is the incredibly harsh lighting - fine in daylight but horrible in the dark when you're feeling tired after a day's work. Gives me a horrible headache unless I close my eyes...

I also don't like bright white lighting as despite the fact that it is marketed as a good thing most of my journeys take place at sunrise/sunset and the bright tone is very in-your-face and, well, too bright (amazing description I know ) and the cream color of older trains (particularly unrefurbished MK3 vehicles and older electrostars) is quite relaxing.

 

[Aictos]

It definitely started more than a year ago, though for a while there was a bit of a mishmash.

Anyway, the old FGW HST discussion has been done to death, and it's obvious that there are extremes of opinions both ways. I was just irked by HLE 13's line about "moaning for no reason at all". Just because you don't have a problem with something, doesn't mean it's not real for someone else.

Let's just say that I'm looking forward to IEP...

Lets just say I'm irked by people constantly complaining that the FGW HSTs are fault with their seating and lighting with high back seating yet surprise surprise don't complain about the high back seating that the East Coast HSTs have :roll:

Oh and another thing that people strangely seem to forget is the fact that when the East Coast HSTs got refurbished and got their Mallard interiors, the lighting was extremely bright and it's only after a few years that the lighting has been dimmed.

Funny that, NOT

 

[southern442]

On the other hand it means more people have a chance of getting a seat. And when you've paid a small fortune for a ticket these things are important!

I actually prefer airline seating although group seats do come in handy when travelling with family or friends.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Thanks all. As the OP I welcome all the responses. Agree with most as to the seats in HST{FGW, not tried any one elses yet) etc.

 

[LexyBoy]

Lets just say I'm irked by people constantly complaining that the FGW HSTs are fault with their seating and lighting with high back seating yet surprise surprise don't complain about the high back seating that the East Coast HSTs have :roll:

Eh? Are you saying that people just complain because it's First and not the sainted EC? FGW's HSTs seem to have a lot of fans as well as haters.

Secondly, is the seating on EC really as high as FGW's? It certainly doesn't seem like it to me. Likewise the seats on 395s and 444s which I assume must also be high-backed, being new, are a nicer height. Legroom on the EC sets is certainly lacking though if you're in airline seats!

Oh and another thing that people strangely seem to forget is the fact that when the East Coast HSTs got refurbished and got their Mallard interiors, the lighting was extremely bright and it's only after a few years that the lighting has been dimmed.

I don't travel on EC that often, so I may not have noticed the bright lighting, especially as it's only a problem for me at night.

 

[Thunderer]

Had a trip to Reading yesterday to view the works. (amazing whats happened since I was there two years ago).

My usual fare is a 395 Ashford to Stratford which is fast, a bit of a wild ride (depending on individual unit), and hard seats. The journey out was a HST, very sedate, very comfortable, smooth acceleration, very quiet (no engine noise). However quite claustrophobic doe to the high seat backs.

Coming back I managed to get a Class 180. Faster acceleration, more comfortable seats with proper window spacing (coach B), more legroom with a view over the seat in front. The ride was just as good as the HST. OK with an engine under the floor there was greater noise, but it seemed to suit the character of the train more as a sports car than the grand tourer that the HST is. I like them both but on balance prefered the 180.

What do others think ?

For me HST's are far superior to DEMU stock with vibrating under the floor engines. Voyagers are also a nightmare to travel long distances on...toilet smell vibrating floors and people packed in like sardines! Privitisation saw the layout of the HST coach change to cram more people in :cry: the original HST layout was much better with more leg room and more table seats. The longest distance I've travelled by HST is from Edinburgh via Carlisle, Preston and Crewe to Bristol (09:10 Aberdeen - Plymouth XC service with 43093 + 43198) and that was a comfortable journey and Bristol was reached only 2 minutes late - The HST's are well established for operating Inter City routes and long distances so for me the HST wins hands down

 

[ainsworth74]

Privitisation saw the layout of the HST coach change to cram more people in, the original HST layout was much better with more leg room and more table seats.

Only after BR did the same...

 

[starrymarkb]

Not to my knowledge, no. This is a misconception that is often bandied about but no evidence has ever been provided as far as I know. If anything, the designs for the mark 3 carriage would have passed to Bombardier, from BREL via ABB and Adtranz.

Would probably be Mk4/156 derived as those are Alstom products (via MetroCammell)

 

[Thunderer]

Only after BR did the same...

You're 100% correct BR did redesign the interior of the HST Mk III in the mid to late 1980's An extra standard class coach was also added to most Great Western services out of Paddington as the sets used to consist of 4 standard class coaches in the early days....now they mostly have 5 standard class coaches most of which were obtained from spare coaching stock cascaded from ECML duties after full Electification in 1991
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Obviously it's subjective. Personally I would consider that a train which gives me a headache does indeed have something in it.

If you're travelling first class you get different, much nicer lighting. When the refurb was first done the lighting was the same throughout but was swiftly changed to a softer, warmer tone in FC - funny that.

I can agree with the subject of FGW lighting. Last weekend I travelled to London from South Wales First Class (and return) and the lighting was less harsh than the lighting provided in Standard Class (experienced during previous journeys at night) However, I did have a drafty journey up as I was sitting at the end of Coach G and on one side of the vestibule at the end of the coach the window in the door was stuck solid half way down and no one could budge it - so everytime the interior door opened I received a lovely artic blast

 

[USRailFan]

You're 100% correct BR did redesign the interior of the HST Mk III in the mid to late 1980's An extra standard class coach was also added to most Great Western services out of Paddington as the sets used to consist of 4 standard class coaches in the early days....now they mostly have 5 standard class coaches most of which were obtained from spare coaching stock cascaded from ECML duties after full Electification in 1991

Would this really free up any coaches? AFAIK all EC HSTs at that point were 2+8 (2 TF, TRFB, 4 TS, TGS), and I assume they were kept that way when they went to the Western Region? Although the HSTs transferred to XC would likely have gotten reduced to 2+7 (one less TF) - did TFs get converted to TS?

 

[samuelmorris]

I'll be honest, the only thing that puts me off Voyagers is the toilet smell, which I only noticed when I was in the vestibule anyway. Apart from that the journeys I've made on one have been quite comfortable. Likewise the 180 was pleasant to travel on generally, but considering they're of a similar age the Voyagers seemed in much better condition.

Putting the interior aside, the 180 was making all sorts of rattling & grinding noises that seemed to have minimal relation to the current speed or movement from the track. They'd take you by surprise sometimes. I didn't really hear any of that on the Voyagers (or the Meridian for that matter but I suppose they're newer). It just gave the impression they weren't very well put together. The brake noise is pretty alarming but having travelled on 315s for years, it doesn't unduly concern me.

Interior-wise it seemed fine with regard to seat comfort and legroom (apart from the guy opposite me at the table sticking his legs out further than was really necessary), but what did annoy me is discovering unevenly distributed luggage racks - I boarded one coach to discover there were no racks either at the south end of the carriage I boarded, or the north end of the adjacent one, and had to get off, walk one carriage further down and get on there, to find that there were two next to each other. Really now, one at each end would make more sense wouldn't it? :P

 

[Kentish Paul]

keep it that way

H'm. After all this and other threads, going to have to have a trip on a Voyager I suppose Reading is the nearest to Ashford (Kent) to get one.:roll:

 

[TheJRB]

H'm. After all this and other threads, going to have to have a trip on a Voyager I suppose Reading is the nearest to Ashford (Kent) to get one.:roll:

To be honest, the quickest and easiest way to ride on a Voyager from Ashford (from first hand experience ), is to take the xx:10 from Euston to Milton Keynes (xx:02 return). It's a fast run and short enough that if you really don't like it you don't have too long to wait to get off!

 

[samuelmorris]

Is it a railway meme that's gone over my head, or do some people take this voyager negativity a bit seriously?

 

[TheJRB]

Is it a railway meme that's gone over my head, or do some people take this voyager negativity a bit seriously?

I don't have a problem with Voyagers personally. I understand they have their shortcomings (toilet smell, short length etc) but they're quite comfortable, they've got a high top speed along with good acceleration and braking. The worst thing I can think is that they're quite loud, but based on my longer trips on EMT Meridians, it's quite easy to tune it out after a while.

I had a peek in the mixed Standard/First Class carriage (D or K depending on length) and that looks just as good as I was told it would be but it was full on the rear portion of the 09:10 from Euston that I travelled on recently.

 

[notadriver]

Vibration under acceleration and little or no phone signal inside the train.

 

[jimm]

For me HST's are far superior to DEMU stock with vibrating under the floor engines. Voyagers are also a nightmare to travel long distances on...toilet smell vibrating floors and people packed in like sardines! Privitisation saw the layout of the HST coach change to cram more people in :cry: the original HST layout was much better with more leg room and more table seats. The longest distance I've travelled by HST is from Edinburgh via Carlisle, Preston and Crewe to Bristol (09:10 Aberdeen - Plymouth XC service with 43093 + 43198) and that was a comfortable journey and Bristol was reached only 2 minutes late - The HST's are well established for operating Inter City routes and long distances so for me the HST wins hands down

The 180 is not a DEMU - it has hydraulic transmisson, hence the occasional bag of spanners moments they can have under the floor during hard acceleration, but as someone who rides on them regularly in FGW-land (four or five days a week), and did when they were hereabouts previously, I simply don't recognise this stuff about vibration. On the odd occasion yes, they do, but I always find Voyagers worse when I encounter those.

The only thing that ever really threw the 180s was badly-worn bullhead rails, which still survived on part of the Cotswold Line when they first moved there in 2004 and the suspension, set up for nice long welded rails, didn't have a clue how to cope, pitching the coaches around quite a lot and, yes, causing vibration as the wheels hit the joints, but that track is long gone now.

The brake noise is pretty alarming

How is it alarming? They always come to a stop nice and smoothly - unlike HSTs on occasion - and if you're inside a 180 the noise really isn't that noticeable, as they have good soundproofing which also keeps out most of the underfloor noise unless the driver is really going for it after a station stop or if the bag of spanners is in evidence. The brakes just make a racket if you're stood on a platform as they arrive. And with sintered metal brake pads, that's not going to change.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yeah I should have clarified, it wasn't that loud from inside - it's from the outside that it draws attention. Hearing that racket before boarding a train travelling at 125mph can be a little bit worrying for the uninitiated

As for Voyagers, I found them quieter than 170s to be honest, unless I just happened to travel on a few of the 'less noisy' units...

 

[Aictos]

Eh? Are you saying that people just complain because it's First and not the sainted EC? FGW's HSTs seem to have a lot of fans as well as haters.

Secondly, is the seating on EC really as high as FGW's? It certainly doesn't seem like it to me. Likewise the seats on 395s and 444s which I assume must also be high-backed, being new, are a nicer height. Legroom on the EC sets is certainly lacking though if you're in airline seats!



I don't travel on EC that often, so I may not have noticed the bright lighting, especially as it's only a problem for me at night.

Both East Coast AND First Great Western have high back seating in their HSTs, I use both quite often and the seats on the FGW are no more higher then these on EC despite some on here claiming that the FGW seats are higher...

I'm just saying that people are complaining just for the sake of complaining, for example there's a certain person who resembles a troll when it comes to a certain TOC which gets tiresome after a while.

As to the lighting, well it has now been a few years now since National Express was in charge and under who the refurbishment programme was started under so yes as I've already stated the lighting was too bright when they were first refurbished BUT after a few years the lighting is now a much more softer light.

 

[TEW]

The East Coast HST refurbishment is older than that, it was initially started by GNER, and carried on by NXEC.

 

[HSTEd]

Mallard is certainly GNER.

I still remember the glory days of Swallow on rakes (although I was only something like 6 or 7 when it started vanishing)

 

[Mainliner]

Give me a proper coach without an engine under the seat any day.

 

[Mugby]

I'm a big fan of 180's.

The only slight criticism I would make of the Hull Trains examples is that the gangways seem a little narrow and the plastic armrests have some sharp edges on them which can be painful if you knock your legs against them. Otherwise, I love the ride quality and the quietness and smoothness of the acceleration. It's a pity they've had their reliability problems.

Living in Derby where the majority of services are Voyagers, I always think 'If only we had 180's!'