HST to Fort William

[najaB]

I have a sneaky suspicion that's it's more of a paper work thing seen as nothing else was considered apart from Sprinters.

I also suspect that it will largely be a paper exercise, but it still needs to be done - and it might require site work to confirm that the paper matches reality. Even as a paper exercise it will take quite a bit of work.

 

[craigybagel]

Was the sleeper service not slowed down dramatically when EWS swapped from 37s to 67s? For a starting point for an HST, I’d take the 37 hauled running times & also look back to the 37 hauled day trains in the 1990s

IIRC, the theory was that the much better acceleration of 67s compared to 37 would cancel out the time lost by the speed restrictions.

 

[Jonny]

Extra income from the luxurious First Class, too.

As long as it is timetabled as having first class...

 

[najaB]

As long as it is timetabled as having first class...

They would be crazy not to!

 

[haggishunter]

Will these be all year round services.or seasonal?

Given the context of the discussion, then if not the whole year, then most of the year rather than a few weeks peak summer service.

Capacity for luggage and outdoor sports gear seems to be high on the thinking for the WHL at this time (hence the 153 conversions). While more passengers go to Oban, the service frequency is higher than currently to Ft Wm and the demand both existing and potential for passengers with bulky outdoor / mountain sports equipment for various seasons / activities is greater on the Fort William section North of Crianlarich.

The winter and 'summer' seasons overlap quite considerably through spring in terms of outdoor activities, so if shifting more of these types of trips to rail or growing the market for outdoor activities in the West Highlands is the objective then service enhancements would need to be at least most of the year if not fully year round.

 

[GrimShady]

IIRC, the theory was that the much better acceleration of 67s compared to 37 would cancel out the time lost by the speed restrictions.

I thought the 37 performance would exceed the 67 given the better tractive effort. 67s are notoriously sluggish of the mark are they not?

 

[craigybagel]

I thought the 37 performance would exceed the 67 given the better tractive effort. 67s are notoriously sluggish of the mark are they not?

I'm just going by what was said at the time. I daresay that with nearly double the horsepower I would expect a 67 to comfortably out perform a 37. They're not that sluggish with a light load.

 

[adamedwards]

Eg snowboards to FW, but not Oban. Now if the 153 could have a luggage rack on the roof...

Given the context of the discussion, then if not the whole year, then most of the year rather than a few weeks peak summer service.

Capacity for luggage and outdoor sports gear seems to be high on the thinking for the WHL at this time (hence the 153 conversions). While more passengers go to Oban, the service frequency is higher than currently to Ft Wm and the demand both existing and potential for passengers with bulky outdoor / mountain sports equipment for various seasons / activities is greater on the Fort William section North of Crianlarich.

The winter and 'summer' seasons overlap quite considerably through spring in terms of outdoor activities, so if shifting more of these types of trips to rail or growing the market for outdoor activities in the West Highlands is the objective then service enhancements would need to be at least most of the year if not fully year round.

 

[Journeyman]

Fair enough, don't use the HST service then. It's being aimed at tourism anyway.

What a stupid argument. What if you need to be somewhere at a certain time, and only an HST-operated, much slower, service will do it? The WHL is hardly awash with frequent trains, is it?

 

[Journeyman]

Was the sleeper service not slowed down dramatically when EWS swapped from 37s to 67s? For a starting point for an HST, I’d take the 37 hauled running times & also look back to the 37 hauled day trains in the 1990s

Yes, the 67's axle load is MUCH higher than the 37, and the result of that is a number of structures on the WHL that the 67s have to crawl over at very low speeds.

 

[GrimShady]

What a stupid argument. What if you need to be somewhere at a certain time, and only an HST-operated, much slower, service will do it? The WHL is hardly awash with frequent trains, is it?

Assuming of course it's replacing a service and not an additional service which is what they did in the early 90s. Unknown at this stage, so not so stupid after all.

 

[Maxfly]

Is there more retb radios being procured for HST,s? They would need the full design required for install + the required traction and or route learning as well as maintaining that knowledge for what would be more like occasional work.
I cannot see them being deployed in the near or medium future for seasonal work on the WHL, maybe the odd special run where a portable would suffice though.

 

[scotraildriver]

Is there more retb radios being procured for HST,s? They would need the full design required for install + the required traction and or route learning as well as maintaining that knowledge for what would be more like occasional work.
I cannot see them being deployed in the near or medium future for seasonal work on the WHL, maybe the odd special run where a portable would suffice though.

All the drivers at Queen St who work the WHL also work HSTs. And portable RETB can easily be used.

 

[Maxfly]

All the drivers at Queen St who work the WHL also work HSTs. And portable RETB can easily be used.

They would need to route learn or be conducted past Crianlarich and portable would likely not suffice for this type of use, or at least ScotRail would need to buy 2 portable units and discussions had as to if this would work as portables are meant for trains not normally fitted that are working specials etc. Timetabled, more regular use normally means fit out with full retb.

 

[Jonny]

Eg snowboards to FW, but not Oban. Now if the 153 could have a luggage rack on the roof...

I suspect it would be well outside of the loading gauge...

 

[craigybagel]

I suspect it would be well outside of the loading gauge...

It would look quite spectacular on the section between Craigendoran and Westerton though.....

 

[Jonny]

It would look quite spectacular on the section between Craigendoran and Westerton though.....

I was thinking some of the bridges on the other side of Helensburgh (if it got that far) but I imagine it would be a massive light show. It would save a few bob on fireworks!

 

[delticdave]

I thought the 37 performance would exceed the 67 given the better tractive effort. 67s are notoriously sluggish of the mark are they not?

I'd beg to differ. Many years ago I watched a 67 lift a 12 car charter train, (ECS) including kitchen cars + a dead 67 out of platform 2 at London Victoria up the 1 in 70 gradient in a very impressive manner. I suspect a 68 would do better with more power, & a modern control system, but it would probably take two 37's in MU to better a single 67.

 

[GrimShady]

I'd beg to differ. Many years ago I watched a 67 lift a 12 car charter train, (ECS) including kitchen cars + a dead 67 out of platform 2 at London Victoria up the 1 in 70 gradient in a very impressive manner. I suspect a 68 would do better with more power, & a modern control system, but it would probably take two 37's in MU to better a single 67.

Granted but the 37 does have almost double the tractive effort of the 67 which should be more appropriate for gradients. Does the 67 have some from of wheel slip control/SEPEX?

I once had a conversation with a ScotRail driver who reckoned the 68 could out perform three 37s. He had been around since the days of loco hauled trains in Scotland.

 

[big all]

?

Granted but the 37 does have almost double the tractive effort of the 67 which should be more appropriate for gradients. Does the 67 have some from of wheel slip control/SEPEX?

I once had a conversation with a ScotRail driver who reckoned the 68 could out perform three 37s. He had been around since the days of loco hauled trains in Scotland.

high tractive effort simply means the abbility to move a more heavy load until you run out off actual power to carry on at that rate off acceleration
you can off course have both but then you need a power train rated for high low end [tractive effort]and engine power that can sustain high exceleration above say 11mph
so basically a 37 may excellerate quicker to perhaps 11-15mph then the 68 would leave it standing
to put it another way iff you can overload on excelleration you are exceeding your tractive effort level but unless you are talking 2000 tonnes on a heavy grade then very high tractive effort just means a few seconds over say the same loco compared to a loco a tractive effort 25% less but both now on 600tonnes
and from memory off about 30 years training 37s they are all the 5s a55500 pounds off traction effort

 

[snookertam]

I would be astounded if this happened. I'm willing to bet that it's a complete non starter.

ScotRail are keeping additional class 156s, so it would make sense for any strengthening to make use of this. Fort William and Mallaig crews already sign those units.

 

[hexagon789]

ScotRail are keeping additional class 156s

I believe they are earmarked for East Kilbride/Kilmarnock services