HST to Fort William

[haggishunter]

Surprisingly none running to Fort William.

Meetings between Scottish Ministers responsible for rural affairs / development and representatives of Scottish ski areas happen several times a year and out of one of these has come from a minister that weekend WHL services to Fort William once separated from Oban services will include an early morning and evening HST operated service. In addition the potential to provide an off peak out and back HST service from Glasgow to Fort William between the peaks during the week is being investigated should the 158s get ditched for the WHL. The HST services would provide the extra capacity to Fort William, the 153s thus added to the 156s to strengthen Oban services.

 

[GrimShady]

Meetings between Scottish Ministers responsible for rural affairs / development and representatives of Scottish ski areas happen several times a year and out of one of these has come from a minister that weekend WHL services to Fort William once separated from Oban services will include an early morning and evening HST operated service. In addition the potential to provide an off peak out and back HST service from Glasgow to Fort William between the peaks during the week is being investigated should the 158s get ditched for the WHL. The HST services would provide the extra capacity to Fort William, the 153s thus added to the 156s to strengthen Oban services.

Wow impressive news! I've long been arguing the HSTs would make great WHL trains and been laughed at for the suggestion. IMO they'd be better using HSTs for the Oban service too instead of the 153 refit. It's a shame they not considering using HST refits for all WHL trains given that there's plenty of HSTs going around, they would make far, far better scenic trains, even a WHL refit of standard class would be possible.

Hasn't the 158s been binned off already?

During the 80s ScotRail used spare MK3 push pull sets to run weekend specials to Oban.

Glad to see common sense prevailing! I will be looking forward to an HST trip to Fort William!

 

[hexagon789]

Meetings between Scottish Ministers responsible for rural affairs / development and representatives of Scottish ski areas happen several times a year and out of one of these has come from a minister that weekend WHL services to Fort William once separated from Oban services will include an early morning and evening HST operated service. In addition the potential to provide an off peak out and back HST service from Glasgow to Fort William between the peaks during the week is being investigated should the 158s get ditched for the WHL. The HST services would provide the extra capacity to Fort William, the 153s thus added to the 156s to strengthen Oban services.

HSTs would be great if they can spare them.

 

[Esker-pades]

Could those HSTs run at the enhanced MU speeds or would they be too heavy?

 

[najaB]

Could those HSTs run at the enhanced MU speeds or would they be too heavy?

AFAIK, the MU speed boards apply to 158s and 156s only. That said, as far as braking goes a HST should be fine, and they're RA5, and so light on their feet so it might be feasible.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I don't see how HSTs would be a good fit for the West Highland Line. They would be slower than the 156s/158s due to not being able to run at the enhanced speeds. Most of the time they would be running at 40/50mph, that's 32% of their potential maximum speed. I think they would be better utilised else where.

 

[GrimShady]

I don't see how HSTs would be a good fit for the West Highland Line. They would be slower than the 156s/158s due to not being able to run at the enhanced speeds. Most of the time they would be running at 40/50mph, that's 32% of their potential maximum speed. I think they would be better utilised else where.

Try sitting on a 156 all the way to Fort William Vs a MK3. Then the reason becomes readily apparent.

Early days yet but a least someone's using their head.

Looks like loco hailed trains are returning after all.

 

[najaB]

Try sitting on a 156 all the way to Fort William Vs a MK3. Then the reason becomes readily apparent.

Nobody is denying that a Mk3 would be more comfortable than a 156 (as currently configured). But I suspect that, given the choice, most people would choose a faster, less comfortable journey over a more comfortable but significantly longer one. Particularly if it is a journey they have to make regularly.

 

[hexagon789]

Could those HSTs run at the enhanced MU speeds or would they be too heavy?

HSTs can run at MU speeds.

However the West Highland Line uses SP (Sprinter) Speeds which HSTs cannot use.

AFAIK, the MU speed boards apply to 158s and 156s only. That said, as far as braking goes a HST should be fine, and they're RA5, and so light on their feet so it might be feasible.

MU apply to HSTs, so do DMU speeds. It's the SP speeds on the WHL which thread won't be able to use. The Highland Mainline has SP speeds to which I believe Network Rail may or may not be ammending to MU or HST for the HSTs on the HML.

SP applies to 156, 158, 170.

I don't see how HSTs would be a good fit for the West Highland Line. They would be slower than the 156s/158s due to not being able to run at the enhanced speeds. Most of the time they would be running at 40/50mph, that's 32% of their potential maximum speed. I think they would be better utilised else where.

It's comfort and capacity, of they can use them on one return trip perhaps more geared to tourists I think I would be a good fit.

Try sitting on a 156 all the way to Fort William Vs a MK3. Then the reason becomes readily apparent.

Early days yet but a least someone's using their head.

Looks like loco hailed trains are returning after all.

Definitely a step in comfort.

 

[najaB]

MU apply to HSTs, so do DMU speeds. It's the SP speeds on the WHL which thread won't be able to use.

Does the WHL use 'standard' MU signs or the square yellow Scottish MU signs (as used on the FNL)? If the latter then they only apply to Class 158 and 156.

 

[hexagon789]

Does the WHL use 'standard' MU signs or the square yellow Scottish MU signs (as used on the FNL)? If the latter then they only apply to Class 158 and 156.

The sectional appendix states 15x, so 156/158 only.

 

[craigybagel]

The sleeper takes about 25 minutes extra northbound and about 35 minutes extra southbound between Fort William and Helensburgh then a 156, that's the difference the speed differentials make.

 

[GrimShady]

Personally speaking I'll take the longer journey time in relative comfort. Speeds aren't always an issue on the WHL trains as road is always quicker these days.

The sensible way forward is for NR to allow all HSTs that are RA5 to use MU differentials. Nothing bigger than a 37 was allowed to use the lines many years ago untill NR had a change in heart.

 

[Rick1984]

Half an hour isn't much difference on a journey of that length anyway.

 

[najaB]

Half an hour isn't much difference on a journey of that length anyway.

It is if you have to make that journey repeatedly and are choosing between getting the train or driving.

 

[Rick1984]

True. I was thinking more of tourists, but of course their not the only passengers

 

[xotGD]

Looks like loco hailed trains are returning after all

They've got one every day with a 73 on the front!

 

[GrimShady]

They've got one every day with a 73 on the front!

I'm aware, it was a reference to a difference of opinion I once had with another member of this site.

 

[InOban]

AIUI, the current CS schedule is still based on the use of 67s, which can only operate because of grandfather rights. There are a number of locations where there is an extra low speed limit which should not apply to the 73.

I wonder if the minister who raised the possibility of an HST service was a tourism minister or a transport one. I would be lovely to dream of a situation where Scotrail had a surplus of stock lying around to be used for peak summer services. Remember that for geographical and other reasons far more passengers are travelling to Oban than FW - more travel between FW and Mallaig than between FW and Glasgow.

 

[GrimShady]

Will these be all year round services.or seasonal?

 

[Mathieu]

Personally speaking I'll take the longer journey time in relative comfort. Speeds aren't always an issue on the WHL trains as road is always quicker these days.

The sensible way forward is for NR to allow all HSTs that are RA5 to use MU differentials. Nothing bigger than a 37 was allowed to use the lines many years ago untill NR had a change in heart.

As someone who travels on this service on an alimony weekly basis. Half an hour is a lot of time to add on, the locals will not be pleased at all

 

[GrimShady]

As someone who travels on this service on an alimony weekly basis. Half an hour is a lot of time to add on, the locals will not be pleased at all

Fair enough, don't use the HST service then. It's being aimed at tourism anyway.

No reason NR can't make an allowance for HSTs to use MU differentials.

 

[najaB]

Fair enough, don't use the HST service then. It's being aimed at tourism anyway.

That would be true if it is an additional service, but it likely will replace an existing one.

No reason NR can't make an allowance for HSTs to use MU differentials.

Nice to know that you've done the work to clear the structures for the higher dynamic loads.

 

[Mathieu]

In regards to HSTs on the WHL I think that one should run in the summer running the Edinburgh - Oban (and back) service

 

[northernbelle]

I don't see how HSTs would be a good fit for the West Highland Line. They would be slower than the 156s/158s due to not being able to run at the enhanced speeds. Most of the time they would be running at 40/50mph, that's 32% of their potential maximum speed. I think they would be better utilised else where.

Not to mention the claustrophobic seats which will rather spoil the view from the carriage. The 156s are actually a pleasant ride even for that distance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Try sitting on a 156 all the way to Fort William Vs a MK3. Then the reason becomes readily apparent.

Extra income from the luxurious First Class, too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not to mention the claustrophobic seats which will rather spoil the view from the carriage. The 156s are actually a pleasant ride even for that distance.

With the ScotRail layout I don't think it will feel like that at all. The Inverness 158s (same seats) don't, I found one a perfect vehicle for a ride up the Far North.

 

[fgwrich]

With the ScotRail layout I don't think it will feel like that at all. The Inverness 158s (same seats) don't, I found one a perfect vehicle for a ride up the Far North.

I agree, I personally believe that the Inverness 158s still hold the benchmark for how the class 158 fleet should be like inside. They are comfortable, decent seating offering a very good layout offering a perfect balance between airline / table and luggage layout.

It's a shame that ScotRail still operates some of the worst 158s in the form of the Haymarket Fleet. which have to be on par with GWRs refurbished sets for the most cramped 158s out there (created thanks to both TOCs moving the seats closer!).

 

[alangla]

AIUI, the current CS schedule is still based on the use of 67s, which can only operate because of grandfather rights. There are a number of locations where there is an extra low speed limit which should not apply to the 73.

Was the sleeper service not slowed down dramatically when EWS swapped from 37s to 67s? For a starting point for an HST, I’d take the 37 hauled running times & also look back to the 37 hauled day trains in the 1990s

 

[GrimShady]

Nice to know that you've done the work to clear the structures for the higher dynamic loads.

Do you know otherwise? I have a sneaky suspicion that's it's more of a paper work thing seen as nothing else was considered apart from Sprinters.

Incidentally does anyone know off hand what the difference in journey times was between 37 hauled local trains and 156 services?