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HST set 253001

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DJD200

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Hi all

Could anyone please tell me the carriage numbers of HST set 253001, preferably when new? I've done a quick Google search but couldn't find them.

Many thanks

DJ

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theblackwatch

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Here you go:
41003 41004 40501 42003 40001 42004 42005

The WR sets didn't keep two catering cars for very long.
 

DJD200

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Many thanks, its for my model and I've only got one buffet car anyway. Sorry, which of those numbers were for the first class and buffet cars?
 

theblackwatch

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The buffet car you have for 253001 may be the wrong type - both 40501 and 40001 had 4 full size windows, but I think all the models produced to date have been of 403xx/407xx examples which only have 3 large windows. It depends how fussy you are for accuracy though!
 

David Goddard

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The buffet car you have for 253001 may be the wrong type - both 40501 and 40001 had 4 full size windows, but I think all the models produced to date have been of 403xx/407xx examples which only have 3 large windows. It depends how fussy you are for accuracy though!

Looking in the Hornby catalogue they do appear to have modelled some with three windows and some with four windows.
 

theblackwatch

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Looking in the Hornby catalogue they do appear to have modelled some with three windows and some with four windows.

It looks like you are correct, I've found this online:
http://www.hornby.com/wagons-coaches/passenger-coaches/br-western-region-mk3-buffet-car.html

Sadly, I think Hornby have got the letting wrong, as - being a TRSB - W40008 would, I'm sure, have been branded 'Buffet-Bar 125' and not 'Restaurant-Buffet 125' which was what the TRUBs carried.
 

Commoner

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Here you go:
41003 41004 40501 42003 40001 42004 42005

The WR sets didn't keep two catering cars for very long.

For the record 253 001 entered passenger service on 09.08.76 as a single TRSB set, with 40001, and the vehicles listed plus an additional TS, 42029 vice 40501.

Due to late delivery, no TRUKs were available for the start of the 125mph service from October 1976. A few sets were temporarily reformed with 2 TRSBs as a stop-gap and 253 001 gained a second TRSB just before 04.10.76 with 40011 replacing 42029.

It was converted to a TRUK set, with 40501 replacing 40011, from mid-November 1976 and remained in a TRUK/TRSB formation until May 1977 when it was called to Works.

From re-entry into traffic in July 1977 and until TGS (440xx) vehicles were introduced (April 1980) it was booked to be formed as a single TRSB set, with 41003/4, 40001, 42003/4/5/84.

I believe from November 1981 it was formed with a TRUB 40348, until a further shuffle of catering cars took place in 1982/3 when it again reverted to a single TRSB set with (from memory) 40429 or 40435. Somebody may be able to clarify.

Hope this helps.
 

DJD200

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Very helpful guys, thank you. I've got one first, four seconds (too many?) and a three-window buffet. The buffet is already numbered 40307 but can rub that off.

I've also got an IC225 set but the coaches look more like Mk3, won't be changing them so have to find numbers for them, and the right transfers for them all :|

DJ
 

theblackwatch

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For the record 253 001 entered passenger service on 09.08.76 as a single TRSB set, with 40001, and the vehicles listed plus an additional TS, 42029 vice 40501.

Due to late delivery, no TRUKs were available for the start of the 125mph service from October 1976. A few sets were temporarily reformed with 2 TRSBs as a stop-gap and 253 001 gained a second TRSB just before 04.10.76 with 40011 replacing 42029.

It was converted to a TRUK set, with 40501 replacing 40011, from mid-November 1976 and remained in a TRUK/TRSB formation until May 1977 when it was called to Works.

From re-entry into traffic in July 1977 and until TGS (440xx) vehicles were introduced (April 1980) it was booked to be formed as a single TRSB set, with 41003/4, 40001, 42003/4/5/84.

I believe from November 1981 it was formed with a TRUB 40348, until a further shuffle of catering cars took place in 1982/3 when it again reverted to a single TRSB set with (from memory) 40429 or 40435. Somebody may be able to clarify.

Hope this helps.

Interesting stuff there. Do you intend publishing the comprehensive records you've accumulated over the years at any time? (If you were to, perhaps it may generate even more information.)
 

Commoner

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Interesting stuff there. Do you intend publishing the comprehensive records you've accumulated over the years at any time? (If you were to, perhaps it may generate even more information.)

Well there's a question! The answer is hopefully yes. I am tentatively looking at producing something on the first few years on the WR, as that is my main area of interest. Whilst I have accumulated a great deal of information on formations, commissioning, delivery/overhaul dates, diagramming and the like, I have spent the past couple of years tracking down individuals who were involved in the HST project to gain a sense of how control and maintenance staff met the challenge of operating the first 125mph service. I have also spent a lot of time in the National Archive at Kew trawling through BRB strategy and planning papers.

I have had some encouragement to get down to writing, but other commitments are getting in the way. I have also pondered on whether I should develop a website or concentrate on trying to produce a book.

I am always happy to try and answer individual questions or bring some clarity if I can, when the opportunity arises. I sense though, that while the HST has gained more respect in recent years, interest amongst railway enthusiasts for those early years is limited.

In terms of the formation records, there are still numerous gaps, conflicts and anomalies which I am always seeking to resolve. If anyone has records of HST formations observed on the WR during 76-78 that they would be willing to share with me, the information would be very welcome. I posted such a request on this forum a few years ago, but obtained a minimal response. As with all individuals who have previously sent info, I am willing to negotiate payment for time and effort expended in reproducing old notes if required, and of course would credit all contributors in any published work. I can be contacted via PM on here, or by email kevindaniel@btinternet.com

Long answer to a short question, but I hope it is useful.
 

Bevan Price

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In terms of the formation records, there are still numerous gaps, conflicts and anomalies which I am always seeking to resolve. If anyone has records of HST formations observed on the WR during 76-78 that they would be willing to share with me, the information would be very welcome. I posted such a request on this forum a few years ago, but obtained a minimal response. As with all individuals who have previously sent info, I am willing to negotiate payment for time and effort expended in reproducing old notes if required, and of course would credit all contributors in any published work. I can be contacted via PM on here, or by email kevindaniel@btinternet.com

Long answer to a short question, but I hope it is useful.

One reason for the lack of response may be that some people, like me, only recorded the power cars. I know which pairs of power cars were used on my HST trips, but I had no interest in recording the numbers of the intermediate coaches.
 

Commoner

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One reason for the lack of response may be that some people, like me, only recorded the power cars. I know which pairs of power cars were used on my HST trips, but I had no interest in recording the numbers of the intermediate coaches.

Yes, Bevan you are absolutely right. Back in those days not many people were as interested in coaching stock and formations. Nevertheless, the sort of detail you have recorded would be very useful in itself, if you had the time to collate it.

I wonder if you could drop me a quick email to the address listed above to discuss. I would be more than happy to reimburse you for your efforts, but also understand you may not be inclined to share your material. I don't seem to be able to PM you.

Thanks

Kevin (Commoner)
 

Taunton

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I've always understood that the HSTs may have had nominal formations but in practice the cars were constantly switched around, and while the set numbers applied to the power cars the trailers were freely rotated, right from the start when the various different types were late in delivery.

An article in Modern Railways shortly after their introduction about a night shift at Bounds Green showed that they even had a dedicated Class 08 shunter at the depot for all the overnight switcharounds that took place, and were doing so on the night they visited (eg an AirCon module in a catering car failed and they had no spare unit, but did have a spare catering car, in itself something that doesn't go with fixed formations).
 

Commoner

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I've always understood that the HSTs may have had nominal formations but in practice the cars were constantly switched around, and while the set numbers applied to the power cars the trailers were freely rotated, right from the start when the various different types were late in delivery.

An article in Modern Railways shortly after their introduction about a night shift at Bounds Green showed that they even had a dedicated Class 08 shunter at the depot for all the overnight switcharounds that took place, and were doing so on the night they visited (eg an AirCon module in a catering car failed and they had no spare unit, but did have a spare catering car, in itself something that doesn't go with fixed formations).

Interesting. Certainly on the WR in the early days there was a great deal of fluidity, partly due to the inability to form Sets with the booked vehicles due to late deliveries, partly due to various technical difficulties which emerged as the sets bedded into traffic, and also on the WR due to the changes in catering provision. That said, even when things had settled down, there were still individual power car and trailer swaps, but is evident from the records I have accumulated, that even in the midst of the difficulties and changes outlined, the WR stuck to the policy and tried to keep sets together. A change did eventually come though in 1983/4 when the WR ceased efforts to maintain power cars to their allocated sets. I think this was due to the separation of power car and trailers maintenance cycles, and from 1984 onwards, trailer sets went to and from Works without their originally allocated power cars.

I have spoken to an Ex-BR Manager who was responsible for the implementation of the HST project on the ER. He told me that from day one, he directed maintenance and operational Controls to treat power cars as individual vehicles, and not as part of an allocated Set. Although my records are not as extensive for the ER, they do seem to show less consistency than that of the WR fleet.

It is clear that when the HST was conceived, the engineers believed/hoped that HST formations would remain fixed. In practice, they certainly were not permanent, but I do not think, as far as the WR was concerned, there was a complete abandonment of efforts to keep power cars together with their allocated trailers.
 

theblackwatch

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Interesting. Certainly on the WR in the early days there was a great deal of fluidity, partly due to the inability to form Sets with the booked vehicles due to late deliveries, partly due to various technical difficulties which emerged as the sets bedded into traffic, and also on the WR due to the changes in catering provision. That said, even when things had settled down, there were still individual power car and trailer swaps, but is evident from the records I have accumulated, that even in the midst of the difficulties and changes outlined, the WR stuck to the policy and tried to keep sets together. A change did eventually come though in 1983/4 when the WR ceased efforts to maintain power cars to their allocated sets. I think this was due to the separation of power car and trailers maintenance cycles, and from 1984 onwards, trailer sets went to and from Works without their originally allocated power cars.

I have spoken to an Ex-BR Manager who was responsible for the implementation of the HST project on the ER. He told me that from day one, he directed maintenance and operational Controls to treat power cars as individual vehicles, and not as part of an allocated Set. Although my records are not as extensive for the ER, they do seem to show less consistency than that of the WR fleet.

The ER started sending sets for overhaul without their correct power cars much earlier than the WR did, which backs up what you have said. According to my notes, the first ER based set to go into works with different power cars was 254010, which was sent in with 43075+43079, the latter (from 254012) being instead of 43074. From then on, it seemed commonplace for ER sets to go into works without their allotted power cars.
 

Helvellyn

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Interesting stuff. I really hope that Commoner produces a book, or a website, as I'd be really interested in seeing the history of the formations as well as the trials and tribulations that were faced introducing the sets into service.

On a side note does anyone know which First Class Trailers gained IC80 seating, and did this extend to any of the catering cars? I have an old InterCity 21 brochure that shows a TF with IC80 seating, but it's not a Mark 3B FO as it has Mk3/3A luggage racks and that orange and black tiger stripe moquette that seemed to get used on Mk 2D/2E First Class vehicles.
 

DJD200

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Further to this, could anyone tell me the original interior colours of the standard class carriages (seats, carpet, tables), or show a photo or give me a link to a photo?

Thanks.

DJ
 

Helvellyn

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Further to this, could anyone tell me the original interior colours of the standard class carriages (seats, carpet, tables), or show a photo or give me a link to a photo?
First Class
https://www.flickr.com/photos/54701885@N03/11842511814/in/photostream/

Second Class

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54701885@N03/11842878626/

Buffet
http://citytransport.info/PhotoCD/PCD09_40.jpg

Vestibules were yellow in First Class and Standard Class but the deep orange/red as shown in the Buffet photo at the non-seating end of catering vehicles.
 

DJD200

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Many thanks Helvellyn. I started painting one of mine red and orange...oops!
 

alexl92

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Where are the power cars from 253 001 now? Presumably still in operation?
 

theblackwatch

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43002 and 43003 (dreaded typos!). 43002 had the honour(!) of being named Top of the Pops by InterCity, surely one of the worst names ever applied.

Compared to a lot of names applied since, it was probably quite a good one! I suspect the BBC would like to forget who named the power car, but you cannot re-write history.
 

Ash Bridge

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43002 and 43003 (dreaded typos!). 43002 had the honour(!) of being named Top of the Pops by InterCity, surely one of the worst names ever applied.

Compared to a lot of names applied since, it was probably quite a good one! I suspect the BBC would like to forget who named the power car, but you cannot re-write history.

That prompts me to ask, has there ever been a What Do You think Is The Worst Nameplate Applied to A Locomotive/Unit thread?
 

DJD200

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Hi guys. So what did the interior of the buffet car look like, were the seats and carpet same colour scheme as the standard class coaches?

Thanks

DJ
 

Helvellyn

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Hi guys. So what did the interior of the buffet car look like, were the seats and carpet same colour scheme as the standard class coaches?
The TRSB had the same seating covers and carpets as the TS vehicles. I believe the TRUK had the same seating covers and carpets as the TF's, but cannot confirm 100%. However, I'd have thought that given the TRUK had IC70 first class seating I'd have thought it logical to use the same seat covers.
 
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