HST haulage limits

[gage75]

Just wondering with regards to the fore coming replacement of the HST's what the max haulage that a single HST power car (number of coaches plus a second power car as a DVT) can haul bearing in mind that most heritage lines would dictate this.

My reasoning of this is future preservation of the HST's and wether this is a viable option

 

[Masbroughlad]

Have ten car ones run before? Would like to see a long HST!

 

[TukayAway]

I think it would be a minimum of 4 coaches going by Grand Central's usage. They usually run with 5 coaches with power car at either end but I'm sure that they've run with 4 in times of difficulty.

For preserved lines though, it might be different with the lower line speeds. However I know that when the prototype HST is up and running, they plan to run it by itself.

 

[headshot119]

I think it would be a minimum of 4 coaches going by Grand Central's usage. They usually run with 5 coaches with power car at either end but I'm sure that they've run with 4 in times of difficulty.

For preserved lines though, it might be different with the lower line speeds. However I know that when the prototype HST is up and running, they plan to run it by itself.

Nah the shortest formation in passenger service is a single power car

 

[55018ballymoss]

Yes, I remember mention of that. Some problem on the Newquay branch one summer, and passengers were conveyed in the guard's accommodation at the back of the power car, back to Par I think?
Cannot remember why it happened...

 

[starrymarkb]

Leading powercar derailed, in an area with very poor access - the few pax (it was one of the first trips of the season) were loaded into the rear power car which took them back to Luxilyan (sp)

 

[asylumxl]

Leading powercar derailed, in an area with very poor access - the few pax (it was one of the first trips of the season) were loaded into the rear power car which took them back to Luxilyan (sp)

http://www.luxsoft.demon.co.uk/village/hst.html

Here's a link with photos .

 

[edwin_m]

IIRC a 2+8 HST with one power car failed can get up to 100mph, though it takes a while. I think they are now officially forbidden from going above a certain speed because the EP system to apply the brakes from both ends won't be working so the brakes will take a bit longer to apply. So I can't see any problem with a full length formation running on one PC at heritage railway speeds.

 

[notadriver]

I've not heard of any speed restriction running on one power car. Source please ?

 

[jopsuk]

As far as I know the only ten car formations have been test train ones.

 

[edwin_m]

I've not heard of any speed restriction running on one power car. Source please ?

Probably read it in Modern Railways somewhere. But I notice someone has posted on another topic about a 110mph limit when hauling a HST as the Brake Control Unit isn't active.

 

[The Planner]

We used to time some ECS moves for FGW HSTs as one engine only, as mentioned they just take longer to get up to any great speed.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Probably read it in Modern Railways somewhere. But I notice someone has posted on another topic about a 110mph limit when hauling a HST as the Brake Control Unit isn't active.

Brake control unit will still be active, if the power car is shut down.

No speed restrictions on a single power car, and you can still get 125 downhill. You will not be allowed onto some sections of route though.

2 + 9 is the realistic limit for 125 running. If HSTs have a future, post regular service, I would see it as being in the charter market. Top speed not so important, so a longer set wouldn't be a problem, route permitting. If running a charter operation, you would want to maximise revenue, so maybe a different foramtion - more first class, possibly two catering vehicles. Packing the bodies in in Standard, isn't what it's about.

For preserved railways, minimum train lenght not an issue - that's for brake force at higher speeds. C3 width restrictions, storage space, facilities to maintain the things and likely customer interest, in what is always going to be a steam market, more of an issue.

 

[shedman]

I can tell you they struggle with 5 loaded TEA tanks and a barrier coach to allow them to couple. Will that be around 550 ton?

 

[flymo]

Yonks ago with a Virgin liveried set, I did Newcastle - Newton Abbot with only one power car working. The inbound arrived from Bristol at Newcastle with 43166 dead and left south again the same way. We skipped Gloucester and the Paignton branch so I got off at Newton Abbot for the connection in lieu of the direct service.
The train did take a while to get up and running but the speed seemed to max out about 100 or so on the faster stretches. Arrived at Newton Abbot about an hour down if I remember.

 

[Kali]

And it either stopped there or got piloted - certainly never used to be allowed over the banks to Plymouth with a dead powercar.

HST powercars have absolutely terrible starting tractive effort, I presume thanks to the design decision to avoid field diverts. I can't however see most preserved lines needing the full capacity of even a 2+7 set though, even if it's restored to the original seating plan, and I presume if they have to start one on a steep hill they'll do the sensible thing & use both powercars.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Just wondering with regards to the fore coming replacement of the HST's what the max haulage that a single HST power car (number of coaches plus a second power car as a DVT) can haul bearing in mind that most heritage lines would dictate this.

My reasoning of this is future preservation of the HST's and wether this is a viable option

Going bsck to the start of this thread, I don't actually understand your reasoning here, beyond the fact that there would be no need whatsoever to have the second loco running, on any line in the country. A class 43 loco is a Type 4. Power is not going to be an issue!

 

[Kali]

A powercar has a maximum of about 18k lb-ft TE. I can't actually find another main line class that has less than double that, as a reference. Max continuous is at 60ish mph which is enormously more than almost everything else, and unfortunately not much use for preservation.

Class 14 has 30k lb-ft starting TE; I know there's a lot of those around, I have no idea of their limits on more difficult preserved lines.

 

[CC 72100]

And it either stopped there or got piloted - certainly never used to be allowed over the banks to Plymouth with a dead powercar.

Not quite the case these days though - Just before Christmas I had an FGW HST with a dead front power car from Exeter to Plymouth, although as a result we did not call at Totnes (still called at Newton Abbot though), so that we had enough momentum from the one power car to go up Dainton. Didn't lose too much time, although Dainton didn't seem particularly fast at all!

 

[Kali]

If you want slow... I was on a 158 from somewhere in Cornwall ( I think ) to Exeter which failed one engine at the start of Rattery - in a really hot summer. Struggled on for a bit, then the aircon got switched off... oy.

Nearest BR class I can find with the approx starting TE of a HST powercar is a Class 06 shunter

 

[E&W Lucas]

A powercar has a maximum of about 18k lb-ft TE. I can't actually find another main line class that has less than double that, as a reference. Max continuous is at 60ish mph which is enormously more than almost everything else, and unfortunately not much use for preservation.

Class 14 has 30k lb-ft starting TE; I know there's a lot of those around, I have no idea of their limits on more difficult preserved lines.

Have you ever driven a HST?

 

[455driver]

And it either stopped there or got piloted - certainly never used to be allowed over the banks to Plymouth with a dead powercar.

HST powercars have absolutely terrible starting tractive effort, I presume thanks to the design decision to avoid field diverts. I can't however see most preserved lines needing the full capacity of even a 2+7 set though, even if it's restored to the original seating plan, and I presume if they have to start one on a steep hill they'll do the sensible thing & use both powercars.

You presume wrong, its to do with the gearing on the traction motors to enable them to cruise at 125mph.

Try pulling away in a car in 1st gear and see how quickly it gets going and how fast it is when the engine hits the rev limiter (still in 1st)
Then do the same thing in 3rd gear.

Its naff all to do with horsepower or diverts and everything to do with gearing.

 

[matchmaker]

Traction would be the problem on hilly lines - see the restrictions for HST's with a failed power car over the South Devon banks and on the Highland Main Line (also I think north of Edinburgh on the East Coast)

 

[Martin_1981]

Can a HST climb the Lickey Incline with one dead power car provided it gains enough speed approaching the foot of the bank and the rail conditions are ok? I know in years gone by they were often loco assisted when one power car was dead, although there aren't many spare loco's around these days. I know the 47's used to struggle a bit up the bank- they were often down to less than 40mph by Barnt Green!

 

[RobShipway]

Can a HST climb the Lickey Incline with one dead power car provided it gains enough speed approaching the foot of the bank and the rail conditions are ok? I know in years gone by they were often loco assisted when one power car was dead, although there aren't many spare loco's around these days. I know the 47's used to struggle a bit up the bank- they were often down to less than 40mph by Barnt Green!

I have a Video of a Voyager taking the Lickey and even though those have an engine per carriage it was struggling to climb it, so my personal opinion is that both HST power cars would I believe have to be working so that the train can take the Lickey Incline at Speed, otherwise if they can make it with a dead engine then it would be at 30 - 40mph as per the Class 47 struggling.

 

[notadriver]

What do you mean the Voyager was struggling ?

 

[gage75]

Going bsck to the start of this thread, I don't actually understand your reasoning here, beyond the fact that there would be no need whatsoever to have the second loco running, on any line in the country. A class 43 loco is a Type 4. Power is not going to be an issue!

reason is basicaly down to costs of running two locos over one loco plus dvt on heritage lines

 

[starrymarkb]

What do you mean the Voyager was struggling ?

Indeed, Voyagers fly up usually (unless they have multiple engines out...)

 

[edwin_m]

Can a HST climb the Lickey Incline with one dead power car provided it gains enough speed approaching the foot of the bank and the rail conditions are ok? I know in years gone by they were often loco assisted when one power car was dead, although there aren't many spare loco's around these days. I know the 47's used to struggle a bit up the bank- they were often down to less than 40mph by Barnt Green!

There was an article in Modern Railways many years ago, a day in the life of Intercity control or some such. They had a driver calling in from somewhere south of the Lickey, reporting running on one engine and requesting a clear run through Bromsgrove. The next call was to say they hadn't got a clear run, had pulled up at the signal at the foot of the incline and were awaiting assistance. Which then took a while to arrive and thorougly messed up the service!

 

[Beveridges]

I can tell you they struggle with 5 loaded TEA tanks and a barrier coach to allow them to couple. Will that be around 550 ton?

Thats interesting, was this a Depot movement at NL with the HST Power car standing in for the 08 ?

Yes, that load would be around 550 ton!