HST Driving techniques

[Railperf]

If there are any HST drivers/ driver managers on here on anyone related to subject of driving, i wanted to ask if there are any current driving guidelines with regards to starting from stations.

In the pre- MTU days, i understand there was an instruction to keep power to notch 3 while one or both power cars were within the station canopy to reduce the amount of smoke accumulating within it. Once clear of the canopy drivers could power up to notch 5.

But i understand that post MTU, this instruction no longer applies, but it appears that drivers still pull away in notch 3 until the rear power car has left the station platform / sometimes slightly earlier.
Can anyone point out what the current guidelines are?

 

[irish_rail]

If there are any HST drivers/ driver managers on here on anyone related to subject of driving, i wanted to ask if there are any current driving guidelines with regards to starting from stations.

In the pre- MTU days, i understand there was an instruction to keep power to notch 3 while one or both power cars were within the station canopy to reduce the amount of smoke accumulating within it. Once clear of the canopy drivers could power up to notch 5.

But i understand that post MTU, this instruction no longer applies, but it appears that drivers still pull away in notch 3 until the rear power car has left the station platform / sometimes slightly earlier.
Can anyone point out what the current guidelines are?

Nothing official although managers prefer you not to hit notch 5 til clear of platform , however myself and many others take no notice as keeping time is more important.
This time of year you will notice more notch 3 departures due to the risk of slipping if trying to pull away in a higher notch.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

there were certainly plenty of valenta departures in notch 5 out of Reading, Newcastle, Bristol, York •••insert HST served station here•••

Think Paddington and Kings Cross the power was kept down but that was probably more down to the speed limits immediately out of the station than anything else

 

[Kneedown]

Not aware of any specific instructions regarding power notches and fumes in stations, but progressive acceleration is good practice as it reduces the risk of wheelslip which would cause jolting in the coaches, and also reduces wear and tear on components, which is important on a 40+ year old workhorse.

 

[hooverboy]

Not aware of any specific instructions regarding power notches and fumes in stations, but progressive acceleration is good practice as it reduces the risk of wheelslip which would cause jolting in the coaches, and also reduces wear and tear on components, which is important on a 40+ year old workhorse.

used to be the case on pretty much all old electrics that the target zone for best acceleration is high yellow amps,give or take a bit for outside environment(ie ice or leaf mulch causing wheel slip).you will be using less on a slippery rail than a dry one..judging that on old trains is still a bit of a black art without traction management systems.

as above poster pointed out,better to build it up than slap it on hard at the first attempt

 

[driver_m]

This rule was definitely not followed on WC. Whilst training to drive I opened them up in notch 5 provided it wasn't wet.

 

[Mintona]

I don’t like to use more than notch 4 until I hit 30mph when leaving a station, which is typically just as the train is clear of the platform, so as not to deafen people still waiting.

 

[Halish Railway]

Does the brake pressure take a while to release?

 

[hexagon789]

Does the brake pressure take a while to release?

It can do, a brake release commences from the front power car only, while a brake application occurs almost simultaneously from both ends thanks to the E70 brake units.

 

[Dhassell]

It can do, a brake release commences from the front power car only, while a brake application occurs almost simultaneously from both ends thanks to the E70 brake units.

I believe the technique for the HST is to release brakes and then into step 2 throttle until you are rolling. Happy to be corrected as per usual.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't doubt it varies Train Operating Company (TOC) to TOC buy here's one method anyway:

Guard gives RA (beep-beep)
Brakes to Step 2
Power to Notch 1
Wait for amps to build
Beep-beep back to guard
Release brakes fully
Power to Notch 2
Notch 3 at 3-5mph
Notch 4 at 10-15mph
Notch 5 at 15-20mph

Of course fully dependant on gradient, signals, line conditions etc.

If pulling out of a station with say a 15 or 20mph limit, probably wouldn't go above Notch 3 for example.

Braking wise:

Mostly Step 3 for sration stops and signals, splashes of Step 4 at higher speeds and to 'correct' retardation. There are occasions where at 125mph you need Step 4 most of the way to bring the speed down sufficiently.

 

[83G/84D]

And heavy braking on a HST results in a lovely smell wafting through the carriages. Do you get that on class 800's? Doubt it somehow probably different brakes.

 

[hexagon789]

And heavy braking on a HST results in a lovely smell wafting through the carriages. Do you get that on class 800's? Doubt it somehow probably different brakes.

Well at least you don't breathe in asbestos particles from the brakes anymore! You probably won't get as much of a 'brake smell' from the 800 as the rheostatic brakes will do most of the high-speed braking.

As an aside, heavy braking on the HSTs, apart from giving off a "lovely" smell (!) also has a nasty habit of taking chunks out of the wheels in the damp. At least it does with older, less efficient Wheelslip Protection System (WSP).

 

[AndrewE]

The HSTs (and I think all Mk 3s) were retrofitted with dampers that shut off the air conditioning intakes when the brakes were applied - just to stop the burnt resin smell entering the system. Someone involved told me at the time that measurements of asbestos in air were made in the coaches, and none was found. This was put down to the fact that the pads "only" contained white asbestos at that time so the heat probably degraded it, and it may have been reduced to particles too small to measure as the pads were slowly ground down.

 

[randyrippley]

Asbestos? Surely that had been replaced by ABS by the time the HSTs came into service? Or even by sintered metal

 

[AndrewE]

Asbestos? Surely that had been replaced by ABS by the time the HSTs came into service? Or even by sintered metal

Definitely still contained asbestos 40 years ago. That's why my colleagues made surreptitious journeys with air sampling kit and then counted the asbestos-sized fibres on microscope slides afterwards. And told me about the job they did.
Don't know why the WCML sets weren't looked at, unless we only had Mk2 stock then.

 

[Domh245]

Well at least you don't breathe in asbestos particles from the brakes anymore! You probably won't get as much of a 'brake smell' from the 800 as the rheostatic brakes will do most of the high-speed braking.

Not when they're in Diesel mode from what I've read. Rheostatic only works in electric on the 800s for some bizarre reason. And instead of the smell of burnt brakes, you get a lovely squealing noise

 

[hexagon789]

Not when they're in Diesel mode from what I've read. Rheostatic only works in electric on the 800s for some bizarre reason. And instead of the smell of burnt brakes, you get a lovely squealing noise

It seems to be a feature of modern disc brakes - a very loud, shrill screeching sound. I find Class 180s as well as French TGVs, the Luxembourgish Dosto Double-Deck coaches and Swiss EW IV coaches to have some of the noisiest brakes around.

It does seem strange that the 800s are friction brake only on Diesel mode, considering that the Diesel-only Voyagers and Meridians use rheostatic braking quite happily.

 

[ComUtoR]

Brakes to Step 2
Power to Notch 1
Wait for amps to build
Beep-beep back to guard
Release brakes fully

Do you have a separate brake/power controller ?

That is similar to a 319. They didn't have a hillstart so you held the brake and took power. Everything else I drive has a CPBC and a 700 has a holding brake that releases when it takes power.

 

[hexagon789]

Do you have a separate brake/power controller ?

HSTs have separate brake and power controllers. A seven-step brake handle on the left (Release-Notches 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (Full Service) and Emergency)) and a five-notch power controller on the right-handside (Off-Notch 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (Full power)).

 

[ComUtoR]

Cheers. I'm 4/4 CPBC or a % CPBC for a 700

 

[robbeech]

It does seem strange that the 800s are friction brake only on Diesel mode, considering that the Diesel-only Voyagers and Meridians use rheostatic braking quite happily.

Certainly does seem odd if that is the case. I assume its a Diesel Electric configuration when running on diesel and not some convoluted method of driving the wheels from 2 different sources which would be problematic for this concept.

 

[hexagon789]

Certainly does seem odd if that is the case. I assume its a Diesel Electric configuration when running on diesel and not some convoluted method of driving the wheels from 2 different sources which would be problematic for this concept.

The IEPs are indeed Diesel-Electrics when in diesel-mode.

 

[TractiveEffort]

Not when they're in Diesel mode from what I've read. Rheostatic only works in electric on the 800s for some bizarre reason. And instead of the smell of burnt brakes, you get a lovely squealing noise

They only operate in Rheostatic braking in neutral sections, the rest of the time it’s regen braking (when on the overhead). The 802’s have Rheostatic braking - much bigger resistors on the roof.

 

[irish_rail]

It can do, a brake release commences from the front power car only, while a brake application occurs almost simultaneously from both ends thanks to the E70 brake units.

I thought brake RELEASE commences from the rear not front power car (hence the new style static brake test isolating the front e70). I stand to be corrected however as traction matters not my strongest point!

 

[TractiveEffort]

I thought brake RELEASE commences from the rear not front power car (hence the new style static brake test isolating the front e70). I stand to be corrected however as traction matters not my strongest point!

Brake release ( rising brake pipe pressure) is from the front BCU only, the test isolating the front BCU is testing that the rear is not creating a brake pipe ( a very undesirable condition).

 

[BestWestern]

I don’t like to use more than notch 4 until I hit 30mph when leaving a station, which is typically just as the train is clear of the platform, so as not to deafen people still waiting.

Spoilsport!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

This driver certainly wasn't!!!

 

[BestWestern]

Ah, that video....!!

 

[43096]

Spoilsport!

I think the word you are looking for is "gnome".

A decent HST driver will start the train in notch 3, get it into notch 4 once the wheels are turning, then let the amps build for a few seconds, then full power. Certainly none of this fannying around so beloved of Great Western.