HST cab protection

[fishwomp]

Great that that was done, but imagine how much work was involved to deal with just one tree! There millions upon millions alongside our railways, both within the boundary (which certainly should be dealt with) and beyond.

Clearing stretches of trees won't be as bad as that. Plenty of examples where embankments have been cleared quickly. The railway could make a start in its own back yard.. it will be responsible for the most trees.. and few will be ancient beauties given they have largely grown from nothing since embankments were left to themselves after steam age. Cut down half the trees and you will have halved the risk

 

[43096]

Clearing stretches of trees won't be as bad as that. Plenty of examples where embankments have been cleared quickly. The railway could make a start in its own back yard.. it will be responsible for the most trees.. and few will be ancient beauties given they have largely grown from nothing since embankments were left to themselves after steam age. Cut down half the trees and you will have halved the risk

And if you target the worst condition trees then you’ll more than half the risk, and improve operational performance, too.

 

[bramling]

Maybe if one of those councillors was seriously injured travelling on a train that hit one of those trees they might form a different opinion.

It doesn’t help that anything to do with local government in this country seems to attract the absolute worst people.

 

[coppercapped]

Not a valid argument. The weather has been increasingly unpredictable and more intense in recent years compared to when the HSTs were new and also back then there wasn’t the current level of trees and vegetation posing a threat to the railway. The risk is far higher now than it ever was before, notwithstanding the deteriorating condition of the bodywork strength etc due to the HST age.

Your post shows that the points I made in my post #43 above have not been understood as well as considerations of the ageing of structures.

Railway safety is best analysed under two headings - active and passive.

Active safety covers all those things which traditionally have made rail one of the safest forms of transport — signalling, track and infrastructure integrity and safety critical items on the train such as the efficiency of the braking system, wheel profiles and suspensions and so on. Passive safety covers those features in the rolling stock which protect those in the train if the active safety fails.

That a tree has fallen across the line is a failure of active safety — not that of the train.

That the tree penetrated the cab is very disturbing as the result could have been the serious injury or death of the driver. However it is not certain that a cab designed and built to meet the current requirements for vehicle safety laid down in the standard EN 15227:2020 Railway applications — Crashworthiness requirements for railway vehicle bodies would have performed differently as this scenario is not listed as one of the most likely events against which the designs are to be tested.

The HST cab is manufactured from glass fibres embedded in an epoxy resin. It is not a plastic which commonly contain plasticisers to promote flexibility and which evaporate over a period of time leaving the base material brittle. Fibreglass is known for its durability which is attributed to several key characteristics:

• it is resistant to corrosion, making it suitable for use in environments exposed to chemicals and saltwater
• it does not absorb moisture[1], preventing issues like rotting or warping
• it possesses high tensile strength, enabling it to withstand significant mechanical stresses without breaking.

There is no evidence that the age of the train had anything to do with the outcome.

The cab failed as the pillars to each side of the windscreen broke under the impact. Even if these pillars had been made of steel that does not mean that the cab would not have been penetrated or the pillars not distorted to a dangerous extent.

This thread follows the RailUK Forums model of generating storms in teacups. Which why we love it!!


[1] If not properly protected this can occur in boat hulls which are permanently immersed in water. One the other hand there are plenty of boat and ships hulls which are more than half a century old and are still in excellent condition although exposed to the aggressive conditions seen at sea - salt, water, heat, cold and ultra-violet light.

 

[Bluejays]

You may find the attached summary of the legal position interesting. With the exception of trees in a private garden (assuming no tree preservation order (TPO) or conservation area is in place) a license is required to chop down any tree. It is explicitly illegal to fell during bird nesting season too.

"
Where a tree must be felled outside of a private garden, you may need a felling licence. If the tree, or trees, amount to 5 cubic metres of timber by volume, it’s usually an offence to fell without one.

The relevant government department will discuss conditions with you before issuing a licence. These are usually around replanting the area and maintaining the trees for a period of time. Licences for thinning woodland don’t have a restocking condition."

"Remember
It’s illegal to fell a tree if it will affect breeding birds."

Any attempts by Network Rail at mass tree felling would likely result in a massive proliferation of emergency TPOs and/or nature conservation areas.

Cutting Down Trees: Law & Legislation - Woodland Trust

Whether you want to fell a tree or protect from felling, protection and preservation laws can be complex. Our guide explains best practice and alternatives.

www.woodlandtrust.org.uk

Not felling during bird nesting season seems very sensible and pretty proportional. Still leaves a large chunk of the year to do it in.

Would be interesting to know what bureaucracy is involved when network rail try to fell trees. You'd hope it would be pretty straightforward

 

[northernbelle]

The people saying that there are 2 main issues here are on the money.

Both the proliferation of vegetation needs to be dealt with but also a recognition that the HST cab structure is unacceptable by modern standards and needs a pragmatic replacement. Talk of needing to improve HST cab protection started as far back as 1999 in the wake of Ladbroke Grove. The majority of drivers I talk to recognise the lack of protection offered by an HST cab and always have, but one can forgive increasing nervousness about the issue given the events of recent years.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Comeng had staff go over to the UK in 1979. By the end they knew the HST power car inside and out and they had thier own local experience and redesigned it.

The fibreglass front on the XPT had to take a 0.9kg steel missile at 220km/h and not be penetrated.

A tree weights a lot more than a couple of pounds.

 

[coppercapped]

The people saying that there are 2 main issues here are on the money.

Both the proliferation of vegetation needs to be dealt with but also a recognition that the HST cab structure is unacceptable by modern standards and needs a pragmatic replacement. Talk of needing to improve HST cab protection started as far back as 1999 in the wake of Ladbroke Grove. The majority of drivers I talk to recognise the lack of protection offered by an HST cab and always have, but one can forgive increasing nervousness about the issue given the events of recent years.

There may have been discussions about improving the HST's cab following Ladbroke Grove but they would not have led to anything. The energies involved in that collision were so enormous - a head-on collision close to line speeds - that no cab protection, even to the current standards, would have helped.

Sad, but true.

A tree weights a lot more than a couple of pounds.

The Australian specification is not a million miles from the original BR design goal...

 

[bramling]

There may have been discussions about improving the HST's cab following Ladbroke Grove but they would not have led to anything. The energies involved in that collision were so enormous - a head-on collision close to line speeds - that no cab protection, even to the current standards, would have helped.

It does seem that both Ladbroke Grove and probably Carmont were always likely to be unsurvivable due to the forces involved. Ufton may be less clear cut however.

 

[Bikeman78]

Indeed, fallen and standing trees regularly kill vehicle drivers who hit them if they're of any size at all. Most people don't understand how strong a tree trunk actually is.

I remember the 1987 storm. My neighbour's conifer tree fell over and crushed a Ford Transit van. It was banana shaped with the middle of the roof virtually at ground level. Many buildings were severely damaged by falling trees. It's only a matter of time before a serious accident occurs on the railway. If dealing with the trees is not an option then suspending the service whenever it is windy seems a likely outcome.

 

[Wolfie]

I remember the 1987 storm. My neighbour's conifer tree fell over and crushed a Ford Transit van. It was banana shaped with the middle of the roof virtually at ground level. Many buildings were severely damaged by falling trees. It's only a matter of time before a serious accident occurs on the railway. If dealing with the trees is not an option then suspending the service whenever it is windy seems a likely outcome.

I was in the officers mess at RAF Abingdon that night. I got zero sleep as the branches of a bloody big tree kept hitting the window and l was expecting it to join me any moment.
I had to go to Malvern the next morning.... The road transport journey to Oxford station dodging fallen trees was 'interesting'....

 

[Bikeman78]

I was in the officers mess at RAF Abingdon that night. I got zero sleep as the branches of a bloody big tree kept hitting the window and l was expecting it to join me any moment.
I had to go to Malvern the next morning.... The road transport journey to Oxford station dodging fallen trees was 'interesting'....

I slept straight through it. Imagine my surprise when I opened the curtains. I spent most of the following day walking around in astonishment. Thousands of trees down, entire rooves stripped of tiles. The top half of my road was lined with Oak trees. The trunks stood firm but most of the branches were ripped down leaving a tangled mess several feet high with cars buried in it. Most of those trees are still there now. I think it was a Thursday night. School was shut on Friday but open again on Monday if I recall correctly. No idea how long it took to get the trains running again.

 

[Krokodil]

Maybe if one of those councillors was seriously injured travelling on a train that hit one of those trees they might form a different opinion.

Or if Network Rail were to suspend their service due to a tree deemed dangerous that someone had slapped a TPO on.

Frankly though there is plenty that NR could be doing besides dealing with trees. Buddleia growing out of brickwork (wasn't the collapse of a gable end at Northwich attributed to that?) and RHS award-winning lawns growing in the four-foot (that'll do the P-way a lot of good).

 

[Wolfie]

Or if Network Rail were to suspend their service due to a tree deemed dangerous that someone had slapped a TPO on.

Frankly though there is plenty that NR could be doing besides dealing with trees. Buddleia growing out of brickwork (wasn't the collapse of a gable end at Northwich attributed to that?) and RHS award-winning lawns growing in the four-foot (that'll do the P-way a lot of good).

The amount of buddelia around the system is utterly scandalous.

 

[Bikeman78]

The amount of buddelia around the system is utterly scandalous.

Agreed. It seems to be beyond the point of no return. No idea what kind of weedkiller they are using. I recently used some strong weedkiller on the patio and it wiped out everything. No doubt NR aren't allowed to use that.

 

[12LDA28C]

Agreed. It seems to be beyond the point of no return. No idea what kind of weedkiller they are using. I recently used some strong weedkiller on the patio and it wiped out everything. No doubt NR aren't allowed to use that.

Weedkiller? I remember the Chipman's weedkilling train which hasn't run for many years. I'd be surprised if any type of weedkilling train ran these days. 'Environmental concerns' and all that.

 

[Krokodil]

Agreed. It seems to be beyond the point of no return. No idea what kind of weedkiller they are using. I recently used some strong weedkiller on the patio and it wiped out everything. No doubt NR aren't allowed to use that.

I'm guessing that you had an old bottle (at least a couple of years old) in the shed, private individuals can't get the good stuff any more. Network Rail can access stronger stuff, though not as strong as what BR used to use.

 

[60159]

Class 158s have suffered major damage in the past when striking trees leading to the driver sustaining injury. And as others have pointed out there is no space behind the driver's seat to shelter as the driver did in this case. The more pressing issue here is lineside vegetation.

I recall listening to a conversation (I think on this forum) where a train went some considerable distance out of control because of greasy lines caused by lineside vegetation commencing around Balmossie Halt so you would think if its a known danger area vegetation would be kept under control.
I may be wrong but did that train not crash through closed level crossing gates at BF station?

 

[chuff chuff]

I recall listening to a conversation (I think on this forum) where a train went some considerable distance out of control because of greasy lines caused by lineside vegetation commencing around Balmossie Halt so you would think if its a known danger area vegetation would be kept under control.
I may be wrong but did that train not crash through closed level crossing gates at BF station?

That area is well known for low adhesion.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I'm guessing that you had an old bottle (at least a couple of years old) in the shed, private individuals can't get the good stuff any more. Network Rail can access stronger stuff, though not as strong as what BR used to use.

We used to use 245-T on BR and as a very close relative of Agent Orange, it did the job very well! Very dodgy stuff though and it has been banned for years.

Getting back to the recent incident, a tree hanging horizontally across the line at windscreen height is going to do a lot of damage to pre-2000 build stock. At least with a HST, the driver could get out of the seat in time. If it had been a Scotrail 158, it could have been a different story. A time ago now, a 158 hit a large inanimate object and after that the drivers side of the cab wasn’t in a good state at all. Fortunately the driver of that one saw what was about to occur and legged it but you haven’t got a lot of room to move in those units, especially if you are having to react late.

So, if I was ASLEF, I would be pressing Scotrail for a definite date by which the HST sets and their 15x sets will be withdrawn. Not immediately, but getting an agreement to phasing them out. You really can’t make the HST or 15x sets significantly safer without huge cost and replacing them with new build, built to higher impact standards, seems to be the best way forward.

All because trees will continue to fall on lines. In this case, looking at the social media pics, it looks as if this was a tall tree, situated on fairly level ground to the railway, but several metres away from the boundary fence (and not overhanging it at all) falling to form a dangerous barrier for the front of any train to hit.

You can have the best railway vegetation clearance programme on the planet but trees falling from well within private property will always be a risk to the railway. Therefore you need to try and eventually eliminate the effects of that risk by making the rolling stock as robust as practical.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Nothing is safe in a tree strike.
GWR 57605 9/3/16 just a few weeks after repaint from blue to green was holed on a down Night Riviera .My shot from Night Riviera Updates thread.

 

[Zamracene749]

There has been a lot of chat about old/modern regulations and collision standards. Where can we compare these factually? I'm not convinced that whatever tree that HST ran into wouldn't have caused pretty serious damage to any train cab other than perhaps one like the loco in my avatar, and even then if it had been just above the bonnet I'd imagine the results wouldn't have been good. There seems to be an old=bad, new=good thing going on here. This isn't to wind any member up, I'm genuinely interested in the data.

 

[chuff chuff]

There seems to be a lot of people who have never been in a cab stating which would be best to try and manoeuvre to escape a windscreen tree hit such as the other day.
If and I mean if you see it coming with enough time it would be easier to throw yourself to the floor of a 158/170 or indeed to escape via the cab door into the coach than an hst cab.

 

[ComUtoR]

There has been a lot of chat about old/modern regulations and collision standards. Where can we compare these factually? I'm not convinced that whatever tree that HST ran into wouldn't have caused pretty serious damage to any train cab other than perhaps one like the loco in my avatar, and even then if it had been just above the bonnet I'd imagine the results wouldn't have been good. There seems to be an old=bad, new=good thing going on here. This isn't to wind any member up, I'm genuinely interested in the data.

The data is out there but you would need to scour lots of specific crash testing and unit specific data. I'm not sure this would be public. However... I'll try and find something in the morning that may help. I might have some crash test data somewhere :/

 

[Killingworth]

No doubt the various railway records will show how many million miles each class of locomotive and unit has run.

Other records may record the number and severity of tree falls onto tracks. They may show how many were removed before being struck. Then they may record the details of the strike and the damage suffered.

Any tree falling onto the track should bring a financial penalty for the owner of the land on which it grew whether there were any injuries or not.

I suspect the tree related injuries to drivers on Class 43s related to miles travelled is not statistically worse or better than other mainline locomotives. Has an Azuma hit a substantial tree at speed to provide a comparison?

 

[Efini92]

There seems to be a lot of people who have never been in a cab stating which would be best to try and manoeuvre to escape a windscreen tree hit such as the other day.
If and I mean if you see it coming with enough time it would be easier to throw yourself to the floor of a 158/170 or indeed to escape via the cab door into the coach than an hst cab.

Better chance of escaping in a 170 then a 158. At least that door opens into the saloon rather than into the cab.

 

[380101]

Better chance of escaping in a 170 then a 158. At least that door opens into the saloon rather than into the cab.

Does the 158 cab door not burst through to the vestibule like the 156 cab doors do? A good shove and the 156 door opens into the vestibule no bother.

 

[Efini92]

Does the 158 cab door not burst through to the vestibule like the 156 cab doors do? A good shove and the 156 door opens into the vestibule no bother.

Depends on the condition of the rubber seal.

 

[Tester]

One might assume there is a far greater perceived risk of collision with a large heavy animal in Aus?

I suspect level crossings.

 

[Recessio]

Or if Network Rail were to suspend their service due to a tree deemed dangerous that someone had slapped a TPO on.

Frankly though there is plenty that NR could be doing besides dealing with trees. Buddleia growing out of brickwork (wasn't the collapse of a gable end at Northwich attributed to that?) and RHS award-winning lawns growing in the four-foot (that'll do the P-way a lot of good).

The amount of buddelia around the system is utterly scandalous.

Agreed. It seems to be beyond the point of no return. No idea what kind of weedkiller they are using. I recently used some strong weedkiller on the patio and it wiped out everything. No doubt NR aren't allowed to use that.

Nine Elms collapse was caused by this (or I should say, buddleia damage to the brickwork was a contributing factor). I live in Vauxhall and you can see so much buddleia on the railway viaduct, and how it spreads to roofs and buildings within ~1 mile radius. A sign of how bad vegetation management by NR has gotten. Given the state of the buddleia, which is a much easier problem to solve than felling trees, if I was a driver in a HST (or any train) I would be very worried about the risk of slamming into a tree (and how well my cab would hold up).