'HS3' to be called Northern Powerhouse Rail

[quantinghome]

Just get it BUILT!
Or do the conservatives make promises but don't deliver on them?
STOP DITHERING YOU SPUDS AND BUILD THE LINE!
I DON'T CARE WHAT IT IS JUST IMPROVE LIV-MANCHESTER-LEEDS-YORK ROUTES!
rant over.

Kinda helps to work out what you need to build before you start... But I agree we need to get on with it.

 

[222ben]

A bit mad at the time sorry

 

[CdBrux]

Not sure if this has been posted on these forums yet, if it has my apologies.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...5/northern-transport-strategy-spring-2016.pdf

Some highlights, including the idea of a dedicated HS spur into Liverpool:

Northern Powerhouse Rail – options have been identified to achieve the vision for reductions in journey
times and increases in frequency and capacity between the largest cities and Manchester Airport.

- As we continue to develop options, a picture is emerging of those that look like the most promising at this
stage to deliver the vision in full. For example:

- Between Leeds and Manchester and Sheffield and Manchester, our work to date has shown that we
need to go further than committed investments in the existing routes to achieve the vision for faster
journeys and more frequent services. On these routes we are therefore developing a range of options,
including new lines for the route, or very significant sections of new line;

- Between Leeds and Newcastle, and Leeds and Hull substantial work to upgrade the existing line is
likely to move us significantly towards the vision;

- Between Manchester, Manchester Airport and Liverpool there is potential to integrate with the
planned HS2 infrastructure including the option of providing a new line.

Outline feasibility work will be completed by Autumn 2016, allowing assessment of the options before
the end of the calendar year

Progress to date

Our work to date shows that achieving the rail vision could require a network including new railway lines,
major upgrades to existing lines and major work at stations. This network will provide for ambitious passenger
and freight growth and would enable better access to destinations right across the North.

Since March 2015, TfN and partners have been working to understand which options make most sense on
individual legs of the network. This starts with looking at what more the existing railway can offer towards
achieving the vision, including significant investments such as electrification, re-signalling and line speed
improvements, and assuming the full High Speed 2 (HS2) network is in place.

We now have a much clearer picture of what is possible, with promising options emerging. For example,
significant upgrade work (electrification, sections of four tracking, grade separation of key junctions) between
Leeds and Hull and Leeds and Newcastle look likely to move significantly towards achieving our ambition.

TfN welcomes High Speed 2 and the announcement of early delivery of Phase 2a connecting the West
Midlands to Crewe by 2027, six years earlier than originally planned. A high speed connection to the south
will add value to the economy of the north improving trade, commerce and development. It will regenerate
local economies allowing local authorities to use High Speed 2 as an opportunity to develop stations as
destinations and interchanges.

The full potential of High Speed 2 can be unlocked by using capacity on the planned route for Northern
Powerhouse Rail services and constructing new connecting routes to deliver our vision. This would allow
significant reductions in journey times between key city regions. For example, between Liverpool and
Manchester there is potential to integrate with the planned High Speed 2 infrastructure including the option
of providing a new line. High Speed 2 could achieve the vision for access between Leeds and Sheffield with
the right timetable and access to Sheffield city centre.

For some routes, our work to date has indicated that in some cases achieving the vision in full might involve
entirely new lines, or in other cases major upgrades to existing routes that are akin to a new line, such as
major bypasses and cut-offs. Further work on route options and intermediate stations is being developed
as outlined in our November 2015 report. On routes between Leeds and Manchester, and Manchester and
Sheffield our work to date has shown that we need to go further than committed investments in the existing
railway in order to achieve our vision for faster journeys and more frequent services. We are therefore
developing a range of options, including new lines, that look at how we could achieve our longer term
transformational vision, as well as accommodate the anticipated growth in freight.

Significant progress has been made in a year, on developing options for our transformational rail network
in the North. Plans for the new High Speed 2 station in Leeds have been reviewed to take into account the
needs of the Northern Transport Strategy – a major step forward. The work will continue – developing plans
for new railways takes time to get right.

We are working on a refined range of options for each corridor, building on the emerging findings from our
work to date. We are keeping all these options live, focussing our effort developing those that our studies
have indicated are likely to be the most promising in terms of achieving the vision, subject to our decisionmaking
criteria, including value for money, affordability and deliverability. Figure 3.3 (overleaf) shows TfN’s
emerging view of the options for the Northern Powerhouse rail network . This may change over time as our
work develops.

 

[Greybeard33]

Not sure if this has been posted on these forums yet, if it has my apologies.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...5/northern-transport-strategy-spring-2016.pdf

Some highlights, including the idea of a dedicated HS spur into Liverpool:

See previous discussion on this thread.

 

[WatcherZero]

Chancellor has signed off on HS3 and Crossrail 2, to be announced in the budget on Wednesday.

£80m for Crossrail 2 development work and ask TfL to match fund the amount, will also bring forward the bill to authorise construction during this parliament
£60m for HS3 development work
£75m for development work on Transpennine tunnel
£161m for upgrades to the M62

First three projects will be from the already announced £300m National Infrastructure Commission budget, M62 is new money.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Chancellor has signed off on HS3 and Crossrail 2, to be announced in the budget on Wednesday.

I think "signed off" on HS3 is a bit optimistic.
He obviously wants to press ahead, and is funding development, but it's a long way until there is a costed project for parliament to vote on.
It looks like Crossrail 2 has leapfrogged HS3 in parliamentary terms.

Having watched Andrew Adonis this morning I get the impression he is impatient to forge ahead, but then you have Network Rail moving at a snail's pace on Manchester-Leeds upgrades and shouting "no room" at having more work to do in CP5.

His report doesn't seem to be out yet. Probably waiting for a press conference somewhere.
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/national-infrastructure-commission

 

[quantinghome]

The report is available on the New Civil Engineer website, but I'm afraid it's subscription only. Some highlights:

- Making sure HS2 phase 2b (due to be announced this Autumn) and the 'conventional' trans-pennine upgrade (scope to be confirmed by 2017) are compatible with HS3. This includes a compatible link from Meadowhall to Sheffield centre to allow direct high speed trains from Leeds to Sheffield, and also mentions using HS2 infrastructure as part of a high speed Liverpool - Leeds connection.

- HS3 between Leeds-Manchester appears to be focussing on existing routes - no real mention of a brand new high speed line between Leeds and Manchester. Calder valley route is in the running, apparently.

- Major upgrade to Manchester Piccadilly. Arup report (mentioned in the NIC report but not published) is looking at HS3 platforms underground here.

Nothing really surprising here, but looks as if the options are narrowing down.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Chancellor has signed off on HS3 and Crossrail 2, to be announced in the budget on Wednesday.

£161m for upgrades to the M62. First three projects will be from the already announced £300m National Infrastructure Commission budget, M62 is new money.

If any motorway has earned its keep, the M62 must be seen as a leading contender from the amount of traffic it has carried in all types of weathers since it was built.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think "signed off" on HS3 is a bit optimistic.
He obviously wants to press ahead, and is funding development, but it's a long way until there is a costed project for parliament to vote on.

If 'HS3' is to be an upgrade to existing lines it is more likely to be part of the CP6 HLOS/SofA process. In which case IIRC from the previous HLOSs it won't ever be voted on.

(I thought it was no longer called HS3 anyway, hence the subject of this thread. How come the BBC are still using the term today?)

 

[Philip Phlopp]

If 'HS3' is to be an upgrade to existing lines it is more likely to be part of the CP6 HLOS/SofA process. In which case IIRC from the previous HLOSs it won't ever be voted on.

(I thought it was no longer called HS3 anyway, hence the subject of this thread. How come the BBC are still using the term today?)

NIC also calling it HS3. I do hope stupid name rail has been dropped.

 

[lejog]

The National Infastructure Comission reports can now be found here

Yes HS3 seems to be very much back.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

- HS3 between Leeds-Manchester appears to be focussing on existing routes - no real mention of a brand new high speed line between Leeds and Manchester. Calder valley route is in the running, apparently.
Nothing really surprising here, but looks as if the options are narrowing down.

Certain forum posters will be disappointed to hear that the financial benefits of a Manchester to Sheffield line were significantly lower than that of a Manchester to Leeds line and that "the initial priority for detailed development should be the link between the two major economic hubs of the North: Manchester and Leeds."

 

[quantinghome]

Also available at the same site is the Arup report on Manchester Piccadilly and upgrade options for Manchester-Leeds via Huddersfield, which is an interesting read.

I must say that there seem to be a lot of fingers in this particular pie. NIC, Network rail and TfN. It seems the Arup report has been written without much reference to the more detailed HS3 studies currently underway, and so they've provided some desk-top options for new tunnels and 4-tracking. Quite why they've been asked to do this by the NIC, and how it relates to all the other study work going on I don't know. Who's actually in charge?

Anyway, from this report HS3 looks similar to the Belgium high speed network - a collection of 4-tracking and linespeed improvement to existing routes and some brand new lines where needed.

 

[WatcherZero]

Reading through a HS3 actionable design is supposed to be ready by the end of 2017.

Will be divided into phase 1 and phase 2. Phase 1 is upgrade of Leeds-Manchester existing route with some improvements to geometry and new tunnels (as well as examining reopening Diggle, though I think its more consider with intention to reject as unsuitable). Liverpool to Manchester via Manchester Airport HS2 may also be built at this time before HS2 itself opens. Phase 2 is improving Liverpool-Manchester with new underground HS3 platforms build at Piccadilly (station box will be built before HS2 viaduct platforms as underneath them but wont open till later) A new loop tunnel will be built so that Leeds services arrive from the east loop around underground and enter the platforms facing back east where they would continue before merging with the HS2 tunnel underground to continue to the airport. Also suggested HS2 platforms may be completed early and used for HS3 phase 1 services until HS2 is completed

Work at Manchester Piccadilly proposed by Arup is a £1bn station redevelopment that includes Platform 15 and 16 for Ordsall Chord, Moving Metrolink out of existing undercroft in to new tunnels and converting Undercroft in to retail, a new concourse thoroughfare below street level with high ceilings an natural light the length of the station. Station box for HS3 platforms down deeper than Metrolink tunnel and above that would be HS2 platforms on viaduct, potentially moving Cheadle coach station to Man Pic.

4 Metrolink through Platforms
4 HS3 through platforms
4 HS2 bay platforms
12 conventional bay platforms
4 conventional through platforms

 

[AM9]

... Also suggested HS2 platforms may be completed early and used for HS3 phase 1 services until HS2 is completed

Fair enough, but you posted:

4 Metrolink through Platforms
4 HS3 through platforms
4 HS2 bay platforms
12 conventional bay platforms
4 conventional through platforms

So how will the HS2 platforms be used temporarily for HS3 if they aren't through platforms and they are high enough to be on a viaduct?

 

[HSTEd]

So how will the HS2 platforms be used temporarily for HS3 if they aren't through platforms and they are high enough to be on a viaduct?

The trains will run between Liverpool and Manchester by running over the HS2 approach tracks south to Manchester Airport.

 

[CLH]

NIC also calling it HS3. I do hope stupid name rail has been dropped.

Reading the report, I feel like Northern Powerhouse Rail has turned into something beyond just HS3

 

[WatcherZero]

Arup report now published, preferred options are B1 and B4.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/507869/160302_NPR_Report_HQ_v5.pdf

Man Pic recommended option 5.0-5.3km of tunnel, 580x22x20m underground station, cost including Contingency £1.2bn. (or £800m without contingency).


These are the possible interventions for NPR/HS3, Y/N whether they could be completed in time for phase 1 of 2022, costs, cost per minute saved.

1 M60 Crossing - Diggle Tunnel, Tunnel, N, 6, £1,766m, £294m, Bypass four intermediate stations with a faster, more direct route.

2 Stalybridge Station, Addition New Platform, Y, 0, £35m, 0, An additional east bound platform would enable fast services from Manchester to pass slower services at this point, to aid the timetabling of fast and slow trains together.

3 Stalybridge - Diggle Tunnel, Tunnel & Disused, N, 3.5, £1,355m, £387m, Bypass two intermediate stations with a faster, more direct route.

4 Uppermill, Turnback to Manchester, N, 0, £10m, 0, A turnback here to allow slow services from Manchester to return to Manchester at this point rather than continuing to
Huddersfield. This would aid the pathing of fast and intermediate trains by removing some slow services between Greenfield and Huddersfield.

5 Greenfield - Diggle, Tunnel 4 Track upgrades, Y - £62m - Provision of additional capacity on approach to Diggle Tunnel.

6 Diggle Tunnel, Re-opening of disused tunnel bore, Y, 0, £160m, 0, Additional capacity through the tunnel

7 Diggle Tunnel - Slaithwaite, 4 Track upgrades, Y, 0, £140m, 0, Provision of additional capacity

8 Diggle Tunnel - Booth Bank Tunnel, N, 1.5, £468m, £312m, Bypass to avoid alignment constraint at Marsden.

9 Slaithwaite - Huddersfield, 4 Track upgrades, Y, 0, £114m, 0, Provision of additional capacity

10 Slaithwaite - Ravensthorpe, Tunnel, N, 5, £2,410m, £482m, Bypass three intermediate stations with a faster, more direct route; avoids Mirfield Junction.
Journey time ignores stop at potential new Huddersfield station.

11 Huddersfield - Ravensthorpe, 4 Track upgrades, Y, 0, £308m, 0, Provision of additional capacity

12 Ravensthorpe Station, New Turnback to Leeds, N, 0, £10m, 0, A turnback here to allow slow services from Leeds to return to Leeds at this point rather than continuing to Huddersfield. This would aid the pathing of fast and intermediate trains by removing some slow services between Ravensthorpe and Huddersfield.

13 Huddersfield - Morley Tunnel, Tunnel, N, 3, £1,907m, £636m, Bypass five intermediate stations with a faster, more direct route; avoids Mirfield Junction.

14 Morley Tunnel - A653, Crossing Tunnel, N, 2.5, £1,018m, £407m, Bypass constrained Morley Tunnel and two intermediate stations with a faster, more direct route.

15 Huddersfield - M62 Crossing - A653 Crossing, Tunnel & Disused Track, N, 10, £2,034m, £203m, Bypass seven intermediate stations with a faster, more direct route. Utilisation of the removed track route between the M62 and A653. The viability of the reuse of this length has not been assessed.

16 Huddersfield - A653 Crossing, Tunnel, N, 10, £2,781m, £278m, Bypass seven intermediate stations with a faster, more direct route.

17 Leeds Station Approach, Disused Viaduct, Y, 0, £64m, 0, Utilisation of the disused rail viaduct at the Leeds station approach. This would bypass a significant portion of the existing track junction interaction on the approach to Leeds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's this glum statement on p46:

3.31 Network Rail has limited the scope for improvements to be included in the
current Transpennine Route Upgrade programme to those that can be delivered
within the existing railway boundary. This decision was made in order to
ensure the upgrade can be delivered by 2022, since working within the railway
boundary avoids the need to engage in a process of gaining powers to use
further land.

So no Huyton-style upgrades east of Manchester then, in the current scheme.
And this on p49:

3.46 On completion of HS2 phase 1 in 2026, a number of electric Pendolino tilting
trains would be released from the West Coast Main Line. If electrification were
to be delivered in future between Sheffield and Manchester, these Pendolinos
could be introduced onto this route in a reconfigured form. In this way it may be
possible to achieve a journey time of 40 minutes between the two compared to
48 minutes currently.

 

[northwichcat]

So is 'HS3' going to connect Manchester Airport HS2 station and the airport terminals? If not aren't the timings to/from Manchester Airport inaccurate if the new 'high speed' services will serve the new HS2 station which will be quite a distance from the terminals?

 

[notlob.divad]

So is 'HS3' going to connect Manchester Airport HS2 station and the airport terminals? If not aren't the timings to/from Manchester Airport inaccurate if the new 'high speed' services will serve the new HS2 station which will be quite a distance from the terminals?

Manchester airport announced a big 10 year development, including expansion of T2, and direct links between T2 and T3. With these plans, Terminal 1 should not be required by 2022. This can then be demolished. however you can't have an airport without a Terminal 1, so a new Terminal 1 at the HS2 station end of the Apron on what is currently a long stay car park is almost inevitable.

 

[swt_passenger]

An earlier version of today's BBC report included a map that had "HS3" stretching as far as Hull and Newcastle. Isn't that sort of 'back to the future' of about 6 months ago?

I wish they'd make up their mind what they are talking about...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Technical Appendix to the Arup document on options for Manchester Piccadilly shows some amazing underground loops designed to connect a northbound HS2/3 route into the existing eastbound rail corridors near Miles Platting and Guide Bridge.
It includes options reaching Victoria (ie Pic-Vic all over again!).
They all look very convoluted and expensive.
The suggestion seems to be that HS3 is Liverpool-Manchester Airport-Piccadilly (low level) and then circling east to reach Calder Valley/Diggle/Hope Valley.
I can't decide if it's visionary or just fantastical.

The map of the suggested Diggle route improvements is another matter though. I can see that working.
Isn't it telling that the most radical options essentially reinstate the LNWR Friezland, Spen Valley and Viaduct routes.
I see the reopening of the disused Standedge bores is costed at £160m and could be ready with the electrification in 2022.

 

[northwichcat]

Manchester airport announced a big 10 year development, including expansion of T2, and direct links between T2 and T3. With these plans, Terminal 1 should not be required by 2022. This can then be demolished. however you can't have an airport without a Terminal 1, so a new Terminal 1 at the HS2 station end of the Apron on what is currently a long stay car park is almost inevitable.

Manchester Airport did say the current T2 will become the main terminal so surely that will become T1 if the Airport must have one?

Although, some Airports have missing terminals/check-in halls - Fiumicino Airport in Rome has a T5 but doesn't have 5 terminals, while Munich Airport has check-in Hall 1A and check-in Hall 1Z but a lot of missing letters in between and I'm sure there are other examples.

 

[swt_passenger]

This can then be demolished, however you can't have an airport without a Terminal 1...

Except Heathrow closed their T1 last year, with no apparent ill effects...

 

[Altnabreac]

Reading through a HS3 actionable design is supposed to be ready by the end of 2017.

Will be divided into phase 1 and phase 2. Phase 1 is upgrade of Leeds-Manchester existing route with some improvements to geometry and new tunnels (as well as examining reopening Diggle, though I think its more consider with intention to reject as unsuitable). Liverpool to Manchester via Manchester Airport HS2 may also be built at this time before HS2 itself opens. Phase 2 is improving Liverpool-Manchester with new underground HS3 platforms build at Piccadilly (station box will be built before HS2 viaduct platforms as underneath them but wont open till later) A new loop tunnel will be built so that Leeds services arrive from the east loop around underground and enter the platforms facing back east where they would continue before merging with the HS2 tunnel underground to continue to the airport. Also suggested HS2 platforms may be completed early and used for HS3 phase 1 services until HS2 is completed

Work at Manchester Piccadilly proposed by Arup is a £1bn station redevelopment that includes Platform 15 and 16 for Ordsall Chord, Moving Metrolink out of existing undercroft in to new tunnels and converting Undercroft in to retail, a new concourse thoroughfare below street level with high ceilings an natural light the length of the station. Station box for HS3 platforms down deeper than Metrolink tunnel and above that would be HS2 platforms on viaduct, potentially moving Cheadle coach station to Man Pic.

4 Metrolink through Platforms
4 HS3 through platforms
4 HS2 bay platforms
12 conventional bay platforms
4 conventional through platforms

4 HS3 platforms are suggested only if needed for reversing services.

If running through services Arup identify that 2 platforms will be sufficient for HS3 / NPR.

The direction of travel certainly seems to be toward a through tunnel option. I had initially been wondering how this would fit with a future Pennine Base Tunnel heading towards Penistone which I had always imagined requiring reversal at Piccadilly.

Now however it strikes me that the most flexible option is to head east in tunnel from Stalybridge as per the Diggle option in the Arup report. This has much more flexibility as it lets Leeds and Sheffield services to run through Piccadilly HS3 without reversal or go Victoria / Preston or Victoria / Ordsall Chord.

Also much easier to build first phase under Piccadilly with some improvements via Huddersfield then build Stalybridge - Barnsley as Phase 2.

 

[notlob.divad]

Manchester Airport did say the current T2 will become the main terminal so surely that will become T1 if the Airport must have one?

Although, some Airports have missing terminals/check-in halls - Fiumicino Airport in Rome has a T5 but doesn't have 5 terminals, while Munich Airport has check-in Hall 1A and check-in Hall 1Z but a lot of missing letters in between and I'm sure there are other examples.

Except Heathrow closed their T1 last year, with no apparent ill effects...

I think my point was more, that a new terminal building replacing the current T1 at the North Western end of the Apron, would logically tie in with the location of the HS2 station whilst providing more space around the enlarged T2 and T3. T1 disappearing before the new terminal is built conveniently means the name can be moved rather than having T2, T3 and T4 without a T1. Either way, a HS2 planned completion date of 2032 with a planned demolition of T1 in 2022 leaves plenty of time for further expansion in the direction of the HS station before the first train arrives.

 

[Haydn1971]

Is it worth pulling out HS North and Crossrail 2 into seperate sub-forums ?

These are, along with HS2, the biggest rail infrastructure projects going forward in the next 20 years

 

[Steveman]

Is it worth pulling out HS North and Crossrail 2 into seperate sub-forums ?

These are, along with HS2, the biggest rail infrastructure projects going forward in the next 20 years

You do realise that neither are going forward at all they're simply something that has been mentioned about 5 times now and are only suggestions.

 

[sheff1]

. however you can't have an airport without a Terminal 1,

Stockholm Arlanda seems to mange just fine and Copenhagen is closing Terminal 1 at the end of the month.

 

[Altnabreac]

Is it worth pulling out HS North and Crossrail 2 into seperate sub-forums ?

These are, along with HS2, the biggest rail infrastructure projects going forward in the next 20 years

[Cough] and High Speed Rail Scotland [/Cough]