HS3 - Proposed Liverpool to Hull improvements

[flypie]

The Leeds -> Hull via Selby doesn't seem to be busy enough to justify or need quading. Except perhaps for the run in at either end. If a passing place was provided at Selby then I cannot see there being any problem.

 

[Ironside]

If the straight-line distance Leeds to Manchester is 35.5 miles, a train would need to average 106.5 mph to achieve a 20-minute journey on ideal track.



Based on what evidence?

Thanks for correcting the Maths. If its 35.5 Miles I calculate that it's possible to do the journey at 125 mph max speed in under 20 mins if using a Javlin (class 395) with acceleration being 0.7 ms2 and decelleration of 0.9 ms2( numbers from Wikipedia ).

I have no evidence, it just seems clear to me that the inhabitants of these large northern cities could do with a faster service.

 

[flypie]

Thanks for correcting the Maths. If its 35.5 Miles I calculate that it's possible to do the journey at 125 mph max speed in under 20 mins if using a Javlin (class 395) with acceleration being 0.7 ms2 and decelleration of 0.9 ms2( numbers from Wikipedia ).

I have no evidence, it just seems clear to me that the inhabitants of these large northern cities could do with a faster service.

It makes even more sense is done in conjunction with a Norwich->Brum->Bristol HS4 TransMid as it would provide good link East West, Hull Bristol via HS3, HS2 and HS4. Liverpool to Norwich HS3, HS2, HS4

 

[Grimsby town]

As far as the Hull Line is concerned I think the only 4 tracking that would be needed is in between Gilberdyke and Ferriby which was 4 tracks originally so shouldn't be to hard to reinstate. The only place you may have trouble is in Brough but as everything stops there keeping it two track should be fine. I think grade separation at Gilberdyke would be useful but not essential.

The most expensive thing would be removing the level crossings which are every couple of miles. Another problem is do you close Broomfleet, Eastrington and Wressle. If the line is going to be made 125mph then stopping at these causes a capacity problem especially with freight trains. Broomfleet would have to be rebuilt if quadrupling took place.

 

[flypie]

With some work Brough could be brought back to it's old format. Though it would loose the car park. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brough_railway_station. The others look like they could be reinstated to 4 track. We are talking 140mph not 125 BTW.

One of the things that strikes me about replacing level crossings is that the span is very standardised, there is obviously a bit of variation in the heights either side of the track and the width of the roads but on the Leeds Hull section they are mostly minor roads. Surely some form of standardised bridge can be produced. The foundations and footings would be the biggest variable but construction of these on either side of the road and track would not cause to much disruption and provided they had a standard interface on the top a bridge could rapidly be put in place from prefabricated parts, over a weekend. It would be a fairly humpback affair but I doubt that is a problem on small roads.

 

[glbotu]

Interesting proposal.

I would like us to discount cost at present though, for some people yes "it's reality", but it does nothing to the debate apart from attempt to close it with the last word. No-one knows any of the costs so lets move on and think about how HS3 can be achieved.

I like the OP's initial proposal, however with some amendments.

From Stalybridge - Manchester, go via Ashton Under Lyne and then turn towards Picc, past Etihad and rebuild the old viaduct to link line into new HS2 station. Trains from Picc HS2 would have 2 options, turn left and over the old viaduct via Etihad and Ashton to Stalybridge or head down towards Brum

The only issue I see here is that you're not able to run trains to Liverpool, which is one of the stated aims of HS3. I guess some form of service into Piccadilly might be ok, but I think as a whole, the bulk of the service will go through Victoria, with the Piccadilly trains served via the Ordsall Chord.

From Stalybridge I would consider shadowing the current line but cutting short tunnels to miss the curves. Something like the Frankfurt-Koeln Neubaustrecke.

Do you have a link to any info on the Neubaustrecke, this seems interesting? I think I get what you're getting at and it seems a reasonable compromise between following existing routing and creating a new line.

Coming into Hudders, there's room for 4 tracks and down towards deighton jnc. From Ravensthorpe, it looks tricky, my proposal is thus:

Share tracks through Dewsbury (add an extra bi-di line as mentioned earlier in the thread) then just as you come over the old Central tunnel, quad track from batley carr through batley to Lower Soothill (like there used to be, but raise the trackbed + rebuild the viaduct + station)

Then north of Batley, take it up and over the line to Morley and follow the old route to Gildersome tunnel.

Up to Batley and just north, this makes sense, i'm a little worried about what you'd do between the new flying junction North of Batley and the Gildersome tunnel. The original line towards the Gildersome tunnel was the LNWR line, whereas the GNR line ran towards Birkenshaw and Low Moor. There's also substantial development around there. I guess a new alignment through some fields might be possible, but given we're doing a lot of work to reduce curvature, this might undo all that hard work.

Rebore Gildersome tunnel, join at Farnley as full 4 track, then vere off to the old holbeck viaduct and into an extended west side of leeds station.

Thereafter, you'll have to 4 track through Leeds CC which will be difficult, but not impossible, just see the Borough market viaduct on how to thread 2 tracks through a built up area. It can be done in London so why not Leeds?

Then it's 4 track all the way to Hull, improving bridges and line speeds all the way.

This all makes sense and looks reasonably feasible.

 

[Grimsby town]

The line speeds on the Hull line are mainly 70-75mph and 80-90mph for sprinters. Assuming that electric trains can use the sprinter differentials add an hourly train that skips Brough (run through at 75mph) and then send the train via HS2 into Leeds City using a connection (not sure this is possible) that's probably the 45 mins that the HS3 report targeted. Evem with the upgrades to LC's, 4 tracking and speed upgrades the quoted £5 billion is crazily expensive. It will come in well under budget I'm sure.

I support a completely new route between Sheffield and Leeds and Manchester using HS2. I won't comment on Manchester to Liverpool because my knowledge on the railways in the area is not strong.

What I will say is this plan needs to help the whole of the north. A fraction of these millions could give reinstate an East Lincolnshire line. We don't want to end up with a 140mph Line to Hull but a 60mph line to Grimsby and Lincoln. We need to not just focus on these core cities but also increasing capacity around Newcastle, improving speeds from Manchester to Blackpool, Preston, North Wales.

Build a new transpennine route but look for cheaper solutions in other places. Sensible new lines like Darlington to Newcastle not complete new lines from Leeds to Newcastle.

 

[stockport1]

I see HS3 as being the electrification programme with some 4 tracking + passing loops and line speed improvements.

I expect liverpool-Manchester will be brought down to around 25 mins with express electrics on current infrastructure with future timetable changes,incremental improvements and eventually ETRMS rollout.

I expect Manchester-leeds electrification will include some 4 tracking as would be prudent like the roby/huyton scheme. no point coming back and doing it later with wires in the way.

the HS3 aspect will be the linespeed improvements when ETRMS is rolled out on top as is already planned by 2030 or whatnot.

I don't believe there really is a HS3...just a cumulative rollout of existing planned upgrades with a political badge when they are all implemented.

 

[Blamethrower]

The only issue I see here is that you're not able to run trains to Liverpool, which is one of the stated aims of HS3. I guess some form of service into Piccadilly might be ok, but I think as a whole, the bulk of the service will go through Victoria, with the Piccadilly trains served via the Ordsall Chord.

Yeah, good point, I remembered that after I posted. For Liverpool, after Ashton Under Lyne, instead of turning left to go past Etihad and into Picc, go straight on and head into Victoria, then use/upgrade existing lines to Liverpool.

Through trains (Liv/Man/Leeds/Hull) would go to Victoria with Manchester - Leeds / Hull shuttles from Picc

Do you have a link to any info on the Neubaustrecke, this seems interesting? I think I get what you're getting at and it seems a reasonable compromise between following existing routing and creating a new line.

Why yes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Köln–Frankfurt_high-speed_rail_line

This one shadows the motorway (rather than an old line)

Up to Batley and just north, this makes sense, i'm a little worried about what you'd do between the new flying junction North of Batley and the Gildersome tunnel. The original line towards the Gildersome tunnel was the LNWR line, whereas the GNR line ran towards Birkenshaw and Low Moor. There's also substantial development around there. I guess a new alignment through some fields might be possible, but given we're doing a lot of work to reduce curvature, this might undo all that hard work.

I've researched this are fairly well having lived in Morley for a fair few years. You are correct, however there would need to be a short "cross track jnc" to join across the two old formations. The thing is, in Batley, there is lots of space for extra track and if you follow the line up the embankment, over the mainline to Drig/Adwalton, vere off before Howden Clough/Birstall (as this are has been built on) and follow the valley towards the gildersome tunnel.

This all makes sense and looks reasonably feasible.

Cheers fella, I only really know the kirklees/WY - Picc part of the route so other will have a better idea about Leeds - Hull + Manchester - Liverpool.

Kirklees/West Yorkshire to me is the most interesting place in terms of old railways and there is a great website that documents it all

 

[flypie]

I'll repoduce the quote from the post at the start of the thread.

Quote of last paragraph of last paragraph of page 20 of The Northern Powerhouse: One Agenda, One Economy, One North


Quote:
Liverpool to Manchester Airport /
Manchester – Work by Network Rail
has shown that journey times between
Liverpool and Manchester of 20 minutes
are possible, including a connection onto
the HS2 network. We will now carry out
further work to produce detailed options to
move towards the journey time ambition.
hThis will include the option for a new
high speed line between Liverpool and
Manchester with a connection to the
proposed HS2 network

That to me read like a high speed line from Liverpool to HS2 and using the Manchester Spur to get into manchester. Using a classic compatible and the Ordsall chord could provide a through service via

 

[Voglitz]

I see HS3 as being the electrification programme with some 4 tracking + passing loops and line speed improvements.

I expect liverpool-Manchester will be brought down to around 25 mins with express electrics on current infrastructure with future timetable changes,incremental improvements and eventually ETRMS rollout.

I expect Manchester-leeds electrification will include some 4 tracking as would be prudent like the roby/huyton scheme. no point coming back and doing it later with wires in the way.

the HS3 aspect will be the linespeed improvements when ETRMS is rolled out on top as is already planned by 2030 or whatnot.

I don't believe there really is a HS3...just a cumulative rollout of existing planned upgrades with a political badge when they are all implemented.

HS3 = Osborne guff.